If I have a process which needs 6KB of RAM and the page size is 4KB, I need to allocate two pages. Can another PROCESS access the remaining 2KB for himself, so that two processes share same page table?
Can two processes share same page, in case that the other page isn't "full"?
In theory it is possible, but there are significant issues:
As #Peter says, allowing both processes to share the same page would bypass traditional process memory protections, as for most processors access protection granularity would be no smaller than a whole page.
The two processes would have to coordinate in some way about who gets what part of that shared page. This could range from
simple coordination that says, process 1 gets the first half and process 2 gets the 2nd half — but this becomes silly when process 1 or process 2 needs more memory, since at that point probably would have been better off simply having their own pages.
the processes communicate with each other to formalize a split between who gets what of that page. Such communication would typically be some kind of synchronization, which is a bottleneck for many situations.
Consider multiple threads in the same process — some modern runtime systems, e.g. for Java and C#, provide a separate per-thread heap so that simple memory allocations do not require synchronization with other threads.
Having one page that is not full represents less than a page of waste per process, which is not very high overhead, so not really a problem that needs solving, given the issues of security and coordination.
Effectively, the operating systems already share the whole of physical memory between processes albeit at a page granularity, so there is sharing (just not intra-page sharing) and the amount of waste is bounded.
We are using Apache Thrift to exchange messages between two systems. In one of the message we are exchanging a list (c++) which can become huge in size. Can you please let me know what is the maximum message size we can exchange using Apache Thrift?
There is no defined "per se" limit (at least none that I am aware of). It mostly depends on how the data are held in memory, what load is on the server and how much resources are avilable. For the most part, contiguos blocks of memory (RAM) will very likely become the scarcest resource, so we should focus on that point.
The "how the data are held in memory" refers to the fact that for the sake of better throughput some transports (buffered, framed) tend to allocate more memory and larger blocks than others. Depending on the language's implementation this process may be implemented more or less efficient in terms of memory cost.
If you really plan to transfer large blocks of data, you should also look at other options like
chunking the data into blocks
sending/returning only an URL or LAN share through the service, instead of the whole data
Can anybody tell me a unix command that can be used to find the number of memory accesses that took place in a given interval. vmstat, top and sar only give the amount of physical memory space occupied/available .. But do not give the number of memory of accesses in a given interval
If I understand what you're asking, such a feature would almost certainly require hardware support at a very low level (e.g. a counter of some sort that monitors memory bus activity).
I don't think such support is available for the common architectures supported by
Unix or Linux, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say that no such Unix command exists.
The situation is somewhat different when considering memory in units of pages,
because most architectures that support virtual memory have dedicated MMU hardware
which operates at that level of granularity, and can be accessed by the operating
system. But as far as I know, the sorts of counter data you'd get from the MMU would
represent events like page faults, allocations, and releases, rather than individual
reads or writes.
I have an application that has multiple threads processing work from a todo queue. I have no influence over what gets into the queue and in what order (it is fed externally by the user). A single work item from the queue may take anywhere between a couple of seconds to several hours of runtime and should not be interrupted while processing. Also, a single work item may consume between a couple of megabytes to around 2GBs of memory. The memory consumption is my problem. I'm running as a 64bit process on a 8GB machine with 8 parallel threads. If each of them hits a worst case work item at the same time I run out of memory. I'm wondering about the best way to work around this.
plan conservatively and run 4 threads only. The worst case shouldn't be a problem anymore, but we waste a lot of parallelism, making the average case a lot slower.
make each thread check available memory (or rather total allocated memory by all threads) before starting with a new item. Only start when more than 2GB memory are left. Recheck periodically, hoping that other threads will finish their memory hogs and we may start eventually.
try to predict how much memory items from the queue will need (hard) and plan accordingly. We could reorder the queue (overriding user choice) or simply adjust the number of running worker threads.
more ideas?
I'm currently tending towards number 2 because it seems simple to implement and solve most cases. However, I'm still wondering what standard ways of handling situations like this exist? The operating system must do something very similar on a process level after all...
regards,
Sören
So your current worst-case memory usage is 16GB. With only 8GB of RAM, you'd be lucky to have 6 or 7GB left after the OS and system processes take their share. So on average you're already going to be thrashing memory on a moderately loaded system. How many cores does the machine have? Do you have 8 worker threads because it is an 8-core machine?
Basically you can either reduce memory consumption, or increase available memory. Your option 1, running only 4 threads, under-utilitises the CPU resources, which could halve your throughput - definitely sub-optimal.
Option 2 is possible, but risky. Memory management is very complex, and querying for available memory is no guarantee that you will be able to go ahead and allocate that amount (without causing paging). A burst of disk I/O could cause the system to increase the cache size, a background process could start up and swap in its working set, and any number of other factors. For these reasons, the smaller the available memory, the less you can rely on it. Also, over time memory fragmentation can cause problems too.
Option 3 is interesting, but could easily lead to under-loading the CPU. If you have a run of jobs that have high memory requirements, you could end up running only a few threads, and be in the same situation as option 1, where you are under-loading the cores.
So taking the "reduce consumption" strategy, do you actually need to have the entire data set in memory at once? Depending on the algorithm and the data access pattern (eg. random versus sequential) you could progressively load the data. More esoteric approaches might involve compression, depending on your data and the algorithm (but really, it's probably a waste of effort).
Then there's "increase available memory". In terms of price/performance, you should seriously consider simply purchasing more RAM. Sometimes, investing in more hardware is cheaper than the development time to achieve the same end result. For example, you could put in 32GB of RAM for a few hundred dollars, and this would immediately improve performance without adding any complexity to the solution. With the performance pressure off, you could profile the application to see just where you can make the software more efficient.
I have continued the discussion on Herb Sutter's blog and provoced some very helpful reader comments. Head over to Sutter's Mill if you are interested.
Thanks for all the suggestions so far!
Sören
Difficult to propose solutions without knowing exactly what you're doing, but how about considering:
See if your processing algorithm can access the data in smaller sections without loading the whole work item into memory.
Consider developing a service-based solution so that the work is carried out by another process (possibly a web service). This way you could scale the solution to run over multiple servers, perhaps using a load balancer to distribute the work.
Are you persisting the incoming work items to disk before processing them? If not, they probably should be anyway, particularly if it may be some time before the processor gets to them.
Is the memory usage proportional to the size of the incoming work item, or otherwise easy to calculate? Knowing this would help to decide how to schedule processing.
Hope that helps?!
In looking at Go and Erlang's approach to concurrency, I noticed that they both rely on message passing.
This approach obviously alleviates the need for complex locks because there is no shared state.
However, consider the case of many clients wanting parallel read-only access to a single large data structure in memory -- like a suffix array.
My questions:
Will using shared state be faster and use less memory than message passing, as locks will mostly be unnecessary because the data is read-only, and only needs to exist in a single location?
How would this problem be approached in a message passing context? Would there be a single process with access to the data structure and clients would simply need to sequentially request data from it? Or, if possible, would the data be chunked to create several processes that hold chunks?
Given the architecture of modern CPUs & memory, is there much difference between the two solutions -- i.e., can shared memory be read in parallel by multiple cores -- meaning there is no hardware bottleneck that would otherwise make both implementations roughly perform the same?
One thing to realise is that the Erlang concurrency model does NOT really specify that the data in messages must be copied between processes, it states that sending messages is the only way to communicate and that there is no shared state. As all data is immutable, which is fundamental, then an implementation may very well not copy the data but just send a reference to it. Or may use a combination of both methods. As always, there is no best solution and there are trade-offs to be made when choosing how to do it.
The BEAM uses copying, except for large binaries where it sends a reference.
Yes, shared state could be faster in this case. But only if you can forgo the locks, and this is only doable if it's absolutely read-only. if it's 'mostly read-only' then you need a lock (unless you manage to write lock-free structures, be warned that they're even trickier than locks), and then you'd be hard-pressed to make it perform as fast as a good message-passing architecture.
Yes, you could write a 'server process' to share it. With really lightweight processes, it's no more heavy than writing a small API to access the data. Think like an object (in OOP sense) that 'owns' the data. Splitting the data in chunks to enhance parallelism (called 'sharding' in DB circles) helps in big cases (or if the data is on slow storage).
Even if NUMA is getting mainstream, you still have more and more cores per NUMA cell. And a big difference is that a message can be passed between just two cores, while a lock has to be flushed from cache on ALL cores, limiting it to the inter-cell bus latency (even slower than RAM access). If anything, shared-state/locks is getting more and more unfeasible.
in short.... get used to message passing and server processes, it's all the rage.
Edit: revisiting this answer, I want to add about a phrase found on Go's documentation:
share memory by communicating, don't communicate by sharing memory.
the idea is: when you have a block of memory shared between threads, the typical way to avoid concurrent access is to use a lock to arbitrate. The Go style is to pass a message with the reference, a thread only accesses the memory when receiving the message. It relies on some measure of programmer discipline; but results in very clean-looking code that can be easily proofread, so it's relatively easy to debug.
the advantage is that you don't have to copy big blocks of data on every message, and don't have to effectively flush down caches as on some lock implementations. It's still somewhat early to say if the style leads to higher performance designs or not. (specially since current Go runtime is somewhat naive on thread scheduling)
In Erlang, all values are immutable - so there's no need to copy a message when it's sent between processes, as it cannot be modified anyway.
In Go, message passing is by convention - there's nothing to prevent you sending someone a pointer over a channel, then modifying the data pointed to, only convention, so once again there's no need to copy the message.
Most modern processors use variants of the MESI protocol. Because of the shared state, Passing read-only data between different threads is very cheap. Modified shared data is very expensive though, because all other caches that store this cache line must invalidate it.
So if you have read-only data, it is very cheap to share it between threads instead of copying with messages. If you have read-mostly data, it can be expensive to share between threads, partly because of the need to synchronize access, and partly because writes destroy the cache friendly behavior of the shared data.
Immutable data structures can be beneficial here. Instead of changing the actual data structure, you simply make a new one that shares most of the old data, but with the things changed that you need changed. Sharing a single version of it is cheap, since all the data is immutable, but you can still update to a new version efficiently.
What is a large data structure?
One persons large is another persons small.
Last week I talked to two people - one person was making embedded devices he used the word
"large" - I asked him what it meant - he say over 256 KBytes - later in the same week a
guy was talking about media distribution - he used the word "large" I asked him what he
meant - he thought for a bit and said "won't fit on one machine" say 20-100 TBytes
In Erlang terms "large" could mean "won't fit into RAM" - so with 4 GBytes of RAM
data structures > 100 MBytes might be considered large - copying a 500 MBytes data structure
might be a problem. Copying small data structures (say < 10 MBytes) is never a problem in Erlang.
Really large data structures (i.e. ones that won't fit on one machine) have to be
copied and "striped" over several machines.
So I guess you have the following:
Small data structures are no problem - since they are small data processing times are
fast, copying is fast and so on (just because they are small)
Big data structures are a problem - because they don't fit on one machine - so copying is essential.
Note that your questions are technically non-sensical because message passing can use shared state so I shall assume that you mean message passing with deep copying to avoid shared state (as Erlang currently does).
Will using shared state be faster and use less memory than message passing, as locks will mostly be unnecessary because the data is read-only, and only needs to exist in a single location?
Using shared state will be a lot faster.
How would this problem be approached in a message passing context? Would there be a single process with access to the data structure and clients would simply need to sequentially request data from it? Or, if possible, would the data be chunked to create several processes that hold chunks?
Either approach can be used.
Given the architecture of modern CPUs & memory, is there much difference between the two solutions -- i.e., can shared memory be read in parallel by multiple cores -- meaning there is no hardware bottleneck that would otherwise make both implementations roughly perform the same?
Copying is cache unfriendly and, therefore, destroys scalability on multicores because it worsens contention for the shared resource that is main memory.
Ultimately, Erlang-style message passing is designed for concurrent programming whereas your questions about throughput performance are really aimed at parallel programming. These are two quite different subjects and the overlap between them is tiny in practice. Specifically, latency is typically just as important as throughput in the context of concurrent programming and Erlang-style message passing is a great way to achieve desirable latency profiles (i.e. consistently low latencies). The problem with shared memory then is not so much synchronization among readers and writers but low-latency memory management.
One solution that has not been presented here is master-slave replication. If you have a large data-structure, you can replicate changes to it out to all slaves that perform the update on their copy.
This is especially interesting if one wants to scale to several machines that don't even have the possibility to share memory without very artificial setups (mmap of a block device that read/write from a remote computer's memory?)
A variant of it is to have a transaction manager that one ask nicely to update the replicated data structure, and it will make sure that it serves one and only update-request concurrently. This is more of the mnesia model for master-master replication of mnesia table-data, which qualify as "large data structure".
The problem at the moment is indeed that the locking and cache-line coherency might be as expensive as copying a simpler data structure (e.g. a few hundred bytes).
Most of the time a clever written new multi-threaded algorithm that tries to eliminate most of the locking will always be faster - and a lot faster with modern lock-free data structures. Especially when you have well designed cache systems like Sun's Niagara chip level multi-threading.
If your system/problem is not easily broken down into a few and simple data accesses then you have a problem. And not all problems can be solved by message passing. This is why there are still some Itanium based super computers sold because they have terabyte of shared RAM and up to 128 CPU's working on the same shared memory. They are an order of magnitude more expensive then a mainstream x86 cluster with the same CPU power but you don't need to break down your data.
Another reason not mentioned so far is that programs can become much easier to write and maintain when you use multi-threading. Message passing and the shared nothing approach makes it even more maintainable.
As an example, Erlang was never designed to make things faster but instead use a large number of threads to structure complex data and event flows.
I guess this was one of the main points in the design. In the web world of google you usually don't care about performance - as long as it can run in parallel in the cloud. And with message passing you ideally can just add more computers without changing the source code.
Usually message passing languages (this is especially easy in erlang, since it has immutable variables) optimise away the actual data copying between the processes (of course local processes only: you'll want to think your network distribution pattern wisely), so this isn't much an issue.
The other concurrent paradigm is STM, software transactional memory. Clojure's ref's are getting a lot of attention. Tim Bray has a good series exploring erlang and clojure's concurrent mechanisms
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2009/09/27/Concur-dot-next
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2009/12/01/Clojure-Theses