I have a classic ASP app that is just starting to undergo transformation into MVC. As that might take a while, I am thinking of applying some MVC-style logic to key parts of the existing code to make day to day maintenance easier.
Firstly I plan to create a 'view' - an include file that is iterated through with every record of a GetRows().
Secondly I plan to create a 'model' - a simple property driven class to display the item. For example a BusinessProfile class might have properties such as BusinessName, Address, PhoneNumber, and YearsInBusiness.
Finally I plan to create a 'controller' class that will grab the data (using the GetRows() method), perform any calculations required and populate the 'model'.
Is such a task worth doing?
Might such an approach would cause a big performance hit in a classic asp app? Right now most of the html is being written directly to the response stream and I understand that this is an efficient way of working in ASP.
I did find an article here which indicates the approach I'm taking, but I won't be going that far in mimicking MVC (no url changes or route data to consider).
Of course there will be a difference in performance in Classic ASP using an MVC structure. It's simply just more work for it to do. However, the trade-off is maintainability, depending on how big the application is, and you have to think it's worth it. I would think it is since Classic ASP is 'spaghetti code'.
To be honest, I would learn C# Asp.Net MVC5 instead. Great tutorials online to learn to do this type of stuff pretty quickly--Developing in general is quicker in C#/.Net than in classic ASP when considering all the built in functionality offered, which helps make up for most of the time taken to learn .net. It's also worth using the effort to learn .net MVC rather than rebuilding or building a new Classic ASP application, because if you knew ASP.Net MVC, you surely wouldn't be going this route. (I am a Classic ASP Developer)
I'm sorry if this is a stupid or obvious question, but I've spent the better part of a week researching, and I really can't find any resources that explain what MVC 4 and Razor are, and what they are intended to do in web development. I'm not necessarily asking for a really detailed description, even a link to a website or the name of a book that doesn't explain MVC 4 by referencing other technologies that I have also never used. I've looked through articles, articles and tutorials on everything from MSDN to graduate papers and I just don't get it.
I know what MVC the design pattern is, but one of the main things I can't get a straight answer to is what the difference is between MVC the pattern and MVC 4 the framework. As a web developer, will I ever have to change or make use of the frameworks, or is it something that is supposed to "stay out of your way" (to quote another SO post.) Is it something that gets generated by VS and I will never have to touch?
Again, I'm sorry if this is obvious, maybe I'm trying to make this more complicated than it actually is. All I have been looking for is a straight forward answer with concrete examples that don't contradict or complicate it any further.
Please...I'm at my wits end here. My last question was apparently too vague and got voted down and closed, so I tried to be more specific, but part of my problem is what are the right questions to ask.If there is anything that can say to clarify,please tell me.
I certainly don't want to discourage you any more than you appear to be at the moment, but in my opinion, if you can't make head or tail of the huge amount of material that already exists on MVC, then perhaps you are just not ready for it yet. That's OK - in fact Microsoft recognise that MVC is complicated, which is why they introduced the ASP.NET Web Pages framework (which is what gave birth to Razor syntax).
My advice would be to follow the link and download WebMatrix. Then follow some of the Web Pages tutorials. That way you can get your head around Razor without worrying too much about MVC for the time being.
Incidentally, ASP.NET MVC is a web development framework that enables you to build web applications based on the MVC pattern. You need to understand how MVC works in order to make use of the framework. You need to understand what Models are, what Views are and the role that Controllers play in the whole thing.
The framework itself is not an example of MVC.
Razor is a templating syntax that allows you to intermix C# (or VB) with HTML to output dynamic content in a View in MVC or a page in the Web Pages framework.
I know it may seem confusing, but it seems to me that you are over complicating things.
The simple matter is that MVC is a design pattern. That is, it's an abstract thing.. a philosophy of sorts. It's not a concrete thing. A design pattern simply gives you a description of how the pattern is supposed to work, and while it may give you a sample implementation, in general it leaves that implementation up to you.
ASP.NET MVC (whichever version) is a specific application framework that uses the MVC pattern as its basis. In other words, it's a concrete implementation of the MVC design pattern.
In fact, the ASP.NET MVC implementation isn't even a "true" implementation of the MVC design pattern, as certain compromises are necessary to make it work in a web based model. So it's really more "MVC design pattern inspired".
You're overthinking things. Just accept that ASP.NET MVC is a framework library that implements and MVC design pattern.
As for Razor, it's merely a templating library. That is, it allows you to define a page layout as text, and insert values at specific places (place-holders). It also allows code to be executed during the process of rendering a template, although this is discouraged in MVC except for very simple cases.
Razor is also used in ASP.NET WebPages technology, in those cases it tends to be more like PHP or classic asp in that all code exists in code blocks within the template itself. Both ASP.NET and WebPages use the Razor templating engine (also called a View Engine) but they use them in different ways.
I need to write a forum application for a friend's web site. I want to write it in C# 3.0 against the ASP.NET MVC framework, with SQL Server database.
So, I've two questions:
Should I use Linq to SQL or the Entity Framework as a database abstraction?
Should I use the ASP.NET Membership API or add Users table and implement it myself?
Thanks.
There are lots of examples around internet which is using ling with ASP.NET MVC. But may be you can add your list NHibernate. If you do not want to add i suggest Entity Framework. Using ORM's is a plus.
I always chose write my own membership management layer. If you are a person like (write your own code and be happy when you are making changes in future.) write your own membership layer. If you are looking for a quick solution ASP.NET Membership API is a good choice.
Entity Framework definitely -- see below.
ASP.net Membership API -- easy to maintain.
Reason:
Entity Framework vs LINQ to SQL
1) How about both? Just create an abstraction and you could just use either. My recommendation is to use the repository pattern.
2) The membership provider has its strengths and weaknesses. For some projects, it was far too complex for my needs. However, it is great if you need to get something running in a short amount of time.
I won't answer the first question since i'm a fan of nhibernate
for the second question adding a users table and implement membership yourself i don't think you will be able to do it at least the right way (lot of people tried to make their own membership api but they messed up !)
1) Totally depends on how complex things are going to get. If you want a quick DAL that more or less mirrors your tables in a 1:1 fashion, go for L2S (or SubSonic if you want something more mature and supported). If you are going for more of an n-tier type thing where your tables and domain model are completely different, go for an OR/M like Entity Framework (or NHibernate if you want something that is pretty much better in every way)
2) ASP.net Membership is extremely complex, and there are bits of it that are fairly poorly engineered. However, it depends on how much experience you have with these things. If you enough to know how to take steps to avoid session fixation attacks, just roll your own because chances are it will be better then the canned solution. If you have no idea what that is, take the time to learn the default one.
Something to think about, SubSonic 3 is a pretty powerful data access generation tool. From what I understand, it basically wraps Linq to Sql inside of some very useful wrappers and makes using Linq a little more intutive. You can have a pretty powerful application built up in no time flat when using SubSonic. One little issue though, if you're using a shared hosting (say GoDaddy) you'll run into a medium trust issue. In that case you can always fall back to Linq To Sql without making many changes to your code base.
As for Aspnet_Membership. Just for the amount of tools it provides, I'd reccomend using it.
Good luck, and hope this helps.
I was wondering if someone could provide me with some answers. I've been asking to swap our internal apps to an MVC architecture for quite a while now. Rails was absolutely shot-down as a toy, Struts is just too huge for the apps we do, Django's name makes these old folks nervous (oil & gas industry) but finally, finally Microsoft has come out with MVC 1.0.
Since the Powers that Be are dead-set on using Microsoft technologies, I think I may be able to convince them to move our applications to an MVC pattern. Unfortunately, I can't come up with a good reason to swap to our forms-based structure to an MVC style.
Can anyone think of justification good enough to feed to my bosses? :-)
Do you have a good reason to switch? It sounds like you don't so I am wondering if you are switching for the sake of MVC itself which I would discourage you from doing.
ASP.NET MVC is helpful when you wish to have more control over the output and lifecyle of your application. Keep in mind that in many cases this means more work for you as the developer. MVC frameworks are good for sites that are not data-entry intensive - in other words if you handle a lot of form POSTs and process data out of those forms then ASP.NET MVC will actually create more work for you.
I don't mean to sound harsh but it seem strange to me that you want to switch to ASP.NET MVC but don't really know why.
There are a number of questions that address this in different ways:
Should I pursue ASP.NET WebForms or ASP.NET MVC
How to decide which is right, WebForms or MVC when doing ASP.NET
Traditional ASP .NET vs MVC
Biggest advantage to using ASP.Net MVC vs web forms
MVC Versus Web Forms
ASP.NET vs ASP.NET MVC
I think it's not a matter of "selling" MVC, but rather of understanding it's advantages.
also, you should seriously evaluate whether migrating an existing system to MVC will be cost effective.
however, MVC has many advantages - here are some from the top of my head:
separating control, data and presentation makes your application more maintainable
easier to make changes
after a relatively short learning curve, easier for other programmers to comprehend
better design means introducing new features is easier. try adding caching, form validation, etc when everything is mixed up...
an MVC system may be more testable (and therefor can be more reliable) - it's much easier to test your controllers than to test a spaghetti of data, control and presentation code.
I think that in this case the OP is looking for a pragmatic (profitable) reason to switch over to MVC, since most companies think that way.
The biggest advantage is that it is much easier to create unit tests for ASP.NET MVC applications. A good suite of unit tests can then serve as the foundation of a Continuous Integration process.
The bottomline for the powers to be is that you can create a build in a single step, simplifying deployment, creating installers, patches etc.
Rails and Django both follow the Model View Controller (MVC) pattern so sounds like you will just be creating a load of work for yourself. Why do YOU want to switch to ASP.NET MVC?
"Struts is just too huge for the apps we do"
In what way? Struts made even simple internal applications a breeze to develop in our company, once we had learned how it worked (which was quite quick). A few JSPs, a few Actions, backend database access done in JDBC via some simple DAOs, bundle it all up in a war with ant/maven and deploy. Done.
Also, fyi, keep Joel's advice in mind (Things You Should Never Do, Part I): avoid rewrite the code from scratch.
I just listened to the StackOverflow team's 17th podcast, and they talked so highly of ASP.NET MVC that I decided to check it out.
But first, I want to be sure it's worth it. I already created a base web application (for other developers to build on) for a project that's starting in a few days and wanted to know, based on your experience, if I should take the time to learn the basics of MVC and re-create the base web application with this model.
Are there really big pros that'd make it worthwhile?
EDIT: It's not an existing project, it's a project about to start, so if I'm going to do it it should be now...
I just found this
It does not, however, use the existing post-back model for interactions back to the server. Instead, you'll route all end-user interactions to a Controller class instead - which helps ensure clean separation of concerns and testability (it also means no viewstate or page lifecycle with MVC based views).
How would that work? No viewstate? No events?
If you are quite happy with WebForms today, then maybe ASP.NET MVC isn't for you.
I have been frustrated with WebForms for a really long time. I'm definitely not alone here. The smart-client, stateful abstraction over the web breaks down severely in complex scenarios. I happen to love HTML, Javascript, and CSS. WebForms tries to hide that from me. It also has some really complex solutions to problems that are really not that complex. Webforms is also inherently difficult to test, and while you can use MVP, it's not a great solution for a web environment...(compared to MVC).
MVC will appeal to you if...
- you want more control over your HTML
- want a seamless ajax experience like every other platform has
- want testability through-and-through
- want meaningful URLs
- HATE dealing with postback & viewstate issues
And as for the framework being Preview 5, it is quite stable, the design is mostly there, and upgrading is not difficult. I started an app on Preview 1 and have upgraded within a few hours of the newest preview being available.
It's important to keep in mind that MVC and WebForms are not competing, and one is not better than the other. They are simply different tools. Most people seem to approach MVC vs WebForms as "one must be a better hammer than the other". That is wrong. One is a hammer, the other is a screwdriver. Both are used in the process of putting things together, but have different strengths and weaknesses.
If one left you with a bad taste, you were probably trying to use a screwdriver to pound a nail. Certain problems are cumbersome with WebForms that become elegant and simple with MVC, and vice-versa.
I have used ASP.NET MVC (I even wrote a HTTPModule that lets you define the routes in web.config), and I still get a bitter taste in my mouth about it.
It seems like a giant step backwards in organization and productivity. Maybe its not for some, but I've got webforms figured out, and they present no challenge to me as far as making them maintainable.
That, and I don't endorse the current "TEST EVERYTHING" fad...
ASP.NET MVC basically allows you to separate the responsibility of different sections of the code. This enable you to test your application. You can test your Views, Routes etc. It also does speed up the application since now there is no ViewState or Postback.
BUT, there are also disadvantages. Since, you are no using WebForms you cannot use any ASP.NET control. It means if you want to create a GridView you will be running a for loop and create the table manually. If you want to use the ASP.NET Wizard in MVC then you will have to create on your own.
It is a nice framework if you are sick and tired of ASP.NET webform and want to perform everything on your own. But you need to keep in mind that would you benefit from creating all the stuff again or not?
In general I prefer Webforms framework due to the rich suite of controls and the automatic plumbing.
I would create a test site first, and see what the team thinks, but for me I wouldn't go back to WebForms after using MVC.
Some people don't like code mixed with HTML, and I can understand that, but I far prefer the flexibility over things like Page Lifecycle, rendering HTML and biggy for me - no viewstate cruft embedded in the page source.
Some people prefer MVC for better testibility, but personally most of my code is in the middle layer and easily tested anyway...
#Juan Manuel Did you ever work in classic ASP? When you had to program all of your own events and "viewstatish" items (like a dropdown recalling its selected value after form submission)?
If so, then ASP.NET MVC will not feel that awkward off the bat. I would check out Rob Conery's Awesome Series "MVC Storefront" where he has been walking through the framework and building each expected component for a storefront site. It's really impressive and easy to follow along (catching up is tough because Rob has been reall active and posted A LOT in that series).
Personally, and quite contrary to Jeff Atwood's feelings on the topic, I rather liked the webform model. It was totally different than the vbscript/classic ASP days for sure but keeping viewstate in check and writing your own CSS friendly controls was enjoyable, actually.
Then again, note that I said "liked". ASP.NET MVC is really awesome and more alike other web technologies out there. It certainly is easier to shift from ASP.NET MVC to RAILS if you like to or need to work on multiple platforms. And while, yes, it is very stable obviously (this very site), if your company disallows "beta" software of any color; implementing it into production at the this time might be an issue.
#Jonathan Holland I saw that you were voted down, but that is a VERY VALID point. I have been reading some posts around the intertubes where people seem to be confusing ASP.NET MVC the framework and MVC the pattern.
MVC in of itself is a DESIGN PATTERN. If all you are looking for is a "separation of concerns" then you can certainly achieve that with webforms. Personally, I am a big fan of the MVP pattern in a standard n-tier environment.
If you really want TOTAL control of your mark-up in the ASP.NET world, then MVC the ramework is for you.
If you are a professional ASP.NET developer, and have some time to spare on learning new stuff, I would certainly recommend that you spend some time trying out ASP.NET MVC. It may not be the solution to all your problems, and there are lots of projects that may benefit more from a traditional webform implementation, but while trying to figure out MVC you will certainly learn a lot, and it might bring up lots of ideas that you can apply on your job.
One good thing that I noticed while going through many blog posts and video tutorials while trying to develop a MVC pet-project is that most of them follow the current best practices (TDD, IoC, Dependency Injection, and to a lower extent POCO), plus a lot of JQuery to make the experience more interesting for the user, and that is stuff that I can apply on my current webform apps, and that I wasn't exposed in such depth before.
The ASP.NET MVC way of doing things is so different from webforms that it will shake up a bit your mind, and that for a developer is very good!
OTOH for a total beginner to web development I think MVC is definitely a better start because it offers a good design pattern out of the box and is closer to the way that the web really works (HTML is stateless, after all). On MVC you decide on every byte that goes back and forth on the wire (at least while you don't go crazy on html helpers). Once the guy gets that, he or she will be better equipped to move to the "artificial" facilities provided by ASP.NET webforms and server controls.
If you like to use server controls which do a lot of work for you, you will NOT like MVC because you will need to do a lot of hand coding in MVC. If you like the GridView, expect to write one yourself or use someone else's.
MVC is not for everyone, specially if you're not into unit testing the GUI part. If you're comfortable with web forms, stay with it. Web Forms 4.0 will fix some of the current shortcomings like the ID's which are automatically assigned by ASP.NET. You will have control of these in the next version.
Unless the developers you are working with are familiar with MVC pattern I wouldn't. At a minimum I'd talk with them first before making such a big change.
I'm trying to make that same decision about ASP.NET MVC, Juan Manuel. I'm now waiting for the right bite-sized project to come along with which I can experiment. If the experiment goes well--my gut says it will--then I'm going to architect my new large projects around the framework.
With ASP.NET MVC you lose the viewstate/postback model of ASP.NET Web Forms. Without that abstraction, you work much more closely with the HTML and the HTTP POST and GET commands. I believe the UI programming is somewhat in the direction of classic ASP.
With that inconvenience, comes a greater degree of control. I've very often found myself fighting the psuedo-session garbage of ASP.NET and the prospect of regaining complete control of the output HTML seems very refreshing.
It's perhaps either the best--or the worst--of both worlds.
5 Reasons You Should Take a Closer Look at ASP.NET MVC
I dont´t know ASP.NET MVC, but I am very familiar with MVC pattern. I don´t see another way to build professional applications without MVC. And it has to be MVC model 2, like Spring or Struts. By the way, how you people were building web applications without MVC? When you have a situation that some kind of validation is necessary on every request, as validating if user is authenticated, what is your solution? Some kind of include(validate.aspx) in every page?
Have you never heard of N-Tier development?
Ajax, RAD (webforms with ajax are anti-RAD very often), COMPLETE CONTROL (without developing whole bunch of code and cycles). webforms are good only to bind some grid and such and not for anything else, and one more really important thing - performance. when u get stuck into the web forms hell u will switch on MVC sooner or later.
I wouldn't recommend just making the switch on an existing project. Perhaps start a small "demo" project that the team can use to experiment with the technology and (if necessary) learn what they need to and demonstrate to management that it is worthwhile to make the switch. In the end, even the dev team might realize they aren't ready or it's not worth it.
Whatever you do, be sure to document it. Perhaps if you use a demo project, write a postmortem for future reference.
I dont´t know ASP.NET MVC, but I am very familiar with MVC pattern. I don´t see another way to build professional applications without MVC. And it has to be MVC model 2, like Spring or Struts. By the way, how you people were building web applications without MVC? When you have a situation that some kind of validation is necessary on every request, as validating if user is authenticated, what is your solution? Some kind of include(validate.aspx) in every page?
No, you shouldn't. Feel free to try it out on a new project, but a lot of people familiar with ASP.NET webforms aren't loving it yet, due to having to muck around with raw HTML + lots of different concepts + pretty slim pickings on documentation/tutorials.
Is the fact that ASP.net MVC is only in 'Preview 5' be a cause for concern when looking into it?
I know that StackOverflow was created using it, but is there a chance that Microsoft could implement significant changes to the framework before it is officially out of beta/alpha/preview release?
If you are dead set on using an MVC framework, then I would rather set out to use Castle project's one...
When that's said I personally think WebControls have a lot of advantages, like for instance being able to create event driven applications which have a stateful client and so on. Most of the arguments against WebControls are constructed because of lack of understanding the WebControl model etc. And not because they actually are truly bad...
MVC is not a Silver Bullet, especially not Microsoft MVC...
I have seen some implementation of MVC framework where for the sake of testability, someone rendered the whole HTML in code. In this case the view is also a testable code. But I said, my friend, putting HTML in code is a maintenance nightmare and he said well I like everything compiled and tested. I didn't argue, but later found that he did put this HTML into resource files and the craziness continued...
Little did he realized that the whole idea of separating View also solved the maintenance part. It outweighs the testability in some applications. We do not need to test the HTML design if we are using WYSWYG tool. WebForms are good for that reason.
I have often seen people abusing postback and viewstate and blaming it on the ASP .NET model.
Remember the best webpages are still the .HTMLs and that's where is the Power of ASP .NET MVC.