I'm about to start building a tumblr clone that handles multiple users (so premade clones like Gelato won't cut it) and I'm not sure which framework I'd like to build this is.
Right now, I'm only intending to build a prototype. Something I can get a dozen friends on to test the concept and grow to maybe a couple hundred users to prove the market, so I'm not worried about long term scale. My biggest concern right now is quick deployment. I'd like to get from zero to signups in as short a time as possible, with as little customization to the framework of choice as possible.
I have experience with PHP, but not Ruby. However, I don't think the learning curve would be too steep so I'm not ruling out rails. I just want the framework that is most appropriate for a system like a multi-user tumblr clone so that I can build it with as little hassle, and as quickly, as possible.
If anyone has experience with a similar project, or with these frameworks and can offer an insightful perspective, I'd be very appreciative.
Thanks for taking the time to read.
Cheers,
~Jordan Feldstein
Definitely Rails. It'd much faster to develop project like this in Rails.
As far as I saw, PHP is lightyears behind from Rails in ORMs. And Rails routing is much better than any PHP framework's as well.
I have been developing in PHP since 2000, and still have a bunch of PHP systems in production (using both CodeIgniter and CakePHP).
I have found Rails to be incredibly more efficient to develop in ... easily 50% more productivity, depending on the use-case. Faster, higher quality. Easy choice for me.
+1 for Rails.
I can't speak about Codeigniter. My general understanding echoes the above statements. Lightweight and no fully object oriented.
I have developed in CakePHP since Jan 2006, after trying to get Rails deployed on my own server and failing badly. Rails was not easy to deploy back then...at least not for me. At the time Cake was the best alternative, and still is in many ways.
Cake is a very competent framework. However, I agree with the statements that it is in many ways far "behind" Rails. Some features are not as well designed, less integrated or simplified in comparison.
A few months ago I spent a couple of day porting one of my Cake apps to Rails2. Just as an exercise. The learning curve was very shallow for someone like me (with a decent grasp of the concepts that Cake and Rails are built on). We recently started porting one of our apps at work to Rails (also from Cake) because we found that support for a lot of things that are important to us are available in Rails or Ruby but not available or as complete in Cake and PHP.
If you are unsure about switching to Ruby you might want to look at Lithium (previously CakePHP v3). It is PHP 5.3 only and still a good way from 1.0 but the community is active and generally it looks like what Cake might have been if it had been started today and not 2005.
CodeIgniter is very lightweight, which is probably to the detriment of this project if you want to code as little as possible.
CakePHP is pretty much an attempt to port Rails to PHP, so choosing between those two frameworks will depend on other factors.
One factor would be whether you want to learn Ruby or not. I have dabbled in it, and feel it is superior to PHP, but more practical concerns keep me from experimenting with it more (have to use PHP at work).
Another concern would be hosting. I use Dreamhost, and the fee is the same for PHP and Rails. However, a friend of mine just got a GoDaddy hosting account, and he actually has to pay a higher monthly fee to have a Passenger-enabled host.
Related
thanks for opening my question :)
I am a university student in Computer Engineering, and I've always done class projects in Java (apart from C, and Assembly, but for very specific things). Apart from that, I have worked for quite a lot of time on a web app done in ActionScript 3, contained in .jsp files and deployed onto a Google App Engine site.
Having that said, I now pretend to do a prototype of another web app, which will have registered users with blogs and a messaging system between them.
My question is, having time as a restraint (I have month and a half), and needing just to build a working prototype, could anyone tell me, in his/her opinion, what would be the best framework for me to start learning and use? (Take into account my Java & ActionScript background) I believe RoR is the most common in these cases, as its easy and quick, but I have no Ruby knowledge at all, and maybe it would be quicker for me to learn Scala (which coming fromJava shouldn't be that different) and Lift, and do it with them instead.
Many thanks in advance!
Pepillo
Last year I found myself in a very similar situation for creating a web based relationship browser for a computing science class. I would highly recommend RoR. Granted you will need to spend some time getting up to speed with Ruby, but it is well worth the small amount of time to learn. There is excellent documentation available and a ton of good tutorials.
Rails can generate much of the core code and database schema with the generator functions in seconds (see scaffolding generators). Considering your time constraint, I think this alone makes rails a good choice.
In terms of learning Ruby, you should not have much trouble with this if you are comfortable with any dynamically typed scripting languages.
Anyway, that has been my experience with rails. Good luck on your project!
I think I'm going with Play! Not only is the easiest for me, as I am a Java guy, but it's also the quickest when in conjuntion with Japid, according to a benchmark I saw.
I used Java for about 7 years now, mostly for web applications, and recently started using RoR. I must say it was really easy to pick up and get started. After only 2 months of working on my own project I started using it for a customer projects and it was far more easier to deliver production code then I had anticipated. So yes I can recommend Ruby and it was not hard at all to pick up.
However, RoR does require a nix platform like apple os or linux. I stated out with windows but there are simply too many drawbacks and bugs.
If you decide to go with ruby I can higly recommend Agile Web Development with Rails (Pragmatic Programmers) to get you started.
I am about to start a new project and I am hung up on which language/framework to use. I've been a PHP programmer professionally, but it wasn't on the scale of this project. I've played around with RoR and i've been very impressed so far. Right now, the two leading candidtates are RoR and Symfony2.
My major hang ups with RoR:
- i don't know ruby, or i hardly do. i can read it ok, but get stuck writing the code.
- i've read complaints about it being slow, and it seems to be slow just at the CLI.
My major hang ups with Symfony2:
- there's practically no documentation for it. Symfony1.x? sure..but not symfony2
- there's also little support. the BB on their site is like 80% spam.
- went to install it on a local dev enviroment haven't been able to even get that running (see my first hang up)
this project will be fairly complex and go beyond the basic CRUD operations. it isn't under a super-tight timeline, but there is one. ~3 months for milestone1 which is basically a calendar, some financial organization stuff (not transactions with financial institutions, just personal finance organization type stuff), and a project manager/cms.
also, i'm open to using other frameworks, but symfony2 seems to be the best right now. if symfony2 had RoR's support/documentation/tutorials/etc it would be a no brainer.
i'm really interested in hearing what the stackoverflowverse has to say on the matter. im constantly impressed with the quality of the answers/replies on this site.
some other sub-questions (that are in my head right now):
- if you recommend a different php framework, why?
- what are you biggest gripes with any of the options mentioned?
i know CakePHP is the closest to RoR, but i've been reading that the models are a bit wonky (Many to many relationships and such).
right now, i'm leaning towards RoR. Simply put, i really want to learn it and it could do the job. i just don't know ruby and i've ready a lot of good about symfony2.
any advice you could offer will be greatly appreciated. thanks!
Personally, I'd recommend that if you're starting a new project which happens to be the largest project you've ever had to do then you should stick with what you know best. This happens to be PHP.
I've used Ruby or Rails. In fact, we have some production apps at our company that use RoR. The best way I learnt RoR was to work on small projects. I would never have considered to choose a programming language which I'm not familiar with and then on top of that learn a new framework to start coding a big project.
As for Symfony2, we started using it a couple of weeks ago. Symfony2 is an excellent framework and looks very promising. It's clean, nicely decoupled and fast. However, we ran into too many bugs/headaches/inconsistencies in Symfony2 to continue using it. We will start working on it again once it has matured and the documentation grows (lots of the docs are now out of date). Hopefully, they'll release some sort of Jobeet tutorial but for Symfony2.
Moving on to CakePHP. CakePHPs code base is old. In fact, it works fine on PHP 4.3.2. It doesn't take advantage of all the goodness that PHP5 has to offer (absract classes, interfaces, private & protected properties, exceptions, magic methods, annotations, pass objects by reference etc.) CakePHPs database abstraction layer, whilst it has had improvements, is not incredibly efficient once your database structures becomes too complex (many joins for example) it crumbles quite badly.
Moving on to Symfony 1.4 which I've used for many large projects
I enjoy using because:
PHP5
Event system
Dependency Injection
Caching system
Forms (nice integration into Doctrine 2) In fact, this is my favourite feature.
Many plugins (sfGuard for user management, for example)
Twig (nice templating language)
Highly configurable
Scalable (although not as fast as Symfony2)
A lot of documentation (Jobeet tutorial is great)
If PHP is for the moment your forte and you need to start working on a large project then start using a PHP based framework as you know the language syntax and functions the best.
Move onto RoR when you have a small project to do.
Just my 2 cents.
Best of luck.
To me Symfony2 has been great so far. Documentation is scarce compared to Symfony1.x but it's much easier to get started in Sf2 and, with things being very explicit, requires less knowledge of how the framework works internally.
There's an app/check.php script that will warn you of any dependency needed to run it, and support mostly happens in their mailing list which is very active (didn't even know there was a BB). Some components, like Twig, also have their own lists.
This is an old topic but things have changed a bit and I would recommend Symfony2. Their current documentation is great (symfony.com) and its much easier to learn for newbies. I did try RoR but with symfony I just got into it much quicker.
I'm amazed of how no one has mentioned the super rich GEM community for Ruby and therefore for Ruby on Rails, there is simply just so much functionality out there, so many people working on some many MIT/open source projects. To me, community is what drives me to go choose one framework over another. The amount of configurations and different template engines, there is just so much out there for ruby on rails.
For a comparison chart check this out:
http://vschart.com/compare/doctrine-php/vs/ruby-on-rails
At the end of the day it all boils down to whatever you know, but do not overlook the community and the functionality that has been written for you already, free of charge...
I'll echo solarc's comments about Symfony 2. I used it for a couple small projects, and am starting something more ambitious with it this week. I would like to see a complete Jobeet-style tutorial, but the main documentation is good enough to get started with IMHO. I'm giving that a thorough read, and have learned a few things that I missed using the documentation as a simple reference.
Finding bundles was my biggest frustration, but the documentation mentions knpbundles.com, and that seems like an excellent resource.
So I know this has been asked before here:
How to start facebook app?
But I am banking on it being a little old and also hoping I have something slightly more specific to ask. So here goes:
I want to build a basic Facebook app, that would require a basic database, a simple front page, and obviously the ability to share/Like over the feed. Now my main concern is I want to do this quickly and easily, without having to deal with as many mundane details as I can avoid.
I was thus looking at CakePHP and Ruby on Rails as frameworks. However, I am not familiar with either of these technologies (I do have a software background, but it is mostly C/C++/Java). So which do you think would be best for me to pick up for this project that will enable me to quickly and easily just 'build' something like this for Facebook?
(Also note that I need a free hosting provider as I don't have money to finance this hobby now, so I'll need to know which hosting companies support these frameworks for free).
Any help is appreciated!
Rails, definitely, there are infinitely more and better resources available to learn from and you can get fantastic free hosting (for small scale apps, plus easily scale for cheap) on Heroku.
To get started, see:
Rails for Zombies (free)
Rails 3 Tutorial
Railscasts
I was in the same situation as you last fall, I knew a fair amount of PHP but had never worked with an MVC web framework before. I tried to learn CakePHP, struggled for a while, then thought I'd spend just one weekend giving Rails a chance. I had never touched Ruby before, but I was so curious about Rails that I picked up a copy of Beginning Rails 3, and I figured I would just take one weekend and see how hard it was to learn some basic Ruby and get an idea for how Rails works.
I thought going into that weekend that there was really no way learning a whole new language could be worth it, even if the framework suited me better. I'm so, so glad I gave it a chance. Ruby is awesome, the community behind it is phenomenal, and the amount of documentation, screencasts, tutorials, etc. are out of this world. Ruby is also a lot of fun to work with, and very easy to learn. Try for yourself and see what you think.
Rails is definitely the way to go (vs CakePHP at least).
The answers so far only scratch the surface!
CakePHP is to PHP what Rails is to Ruby. From the onset, CakePHP was developed to mimic the "Rails" way on things, and has done really well so far; but if you're starting from scratch; you need to remember you have to:
Set up a development environment, which in turn involves
Install the language (PHP / Ruby) and Database (MySQL?)
Learning some basic server configuration(s)
Choosing which one is right for you, and setting it up (Apache, Nginx, Passenger etc)
Get the framework up and running
Learn the underlying language
Learn the framework
Learn the Facebook API, and their developer guidelines
Actually Build the application
Test it, debug and submit for approval
Launch it
Having developed in both CakePHP and RoR - if you're coming with no web development background and you're looking to start; dive in with either. Honestly, it'll be the same learning curve for you! You will find the setup, learning, development and deployment easier in CakePHP - PHP is one of the most popular languages. If you want to learn a language and framework also to improve your skills as a programmer and developer, then you want RoR - it's got strict conventions that do twist your mind but once you get the hang of it, there's no looking back (and these are the same conventions that CakePHP is trying to bring to the PHP world!).
The official documentation for both is excellent, they have amazing (and very active!) communities where even the silliest question is answered. There are also excellent (free) hosting platforms available, that make use of Git and make deployment a snap (PHPFog and Heroku).
It might be worth mentioning that RoR is considered the new boy on the scene, the trendy framework thats bringing with it a lot of rapid changes in development methodologies, and that RoR developers also are in very high demand.
Also - considering the simplicity of the App - have you considered using Sinatra (a very minimal framework for Ruby)? You may find that the easiest, and it'll be an excellent stepping stone if you later wanted to get into Ruby on Rails.
OK, this thread is about 1 1/2 years old by the time I write this. But wanted to add something to the discussion for anyone finding this, as I did doing a search on RoR vs CakePHP.
As of this date, and during the last 12 months, RoR is trending about 3 times what CakePHP is, according to Google Trends. Now, this is just RoR vs CakePHP.
When I add Facebook into the mix, RoR/Facebook is still about 3 times CakePHP/Facebook, but if you look at the last 3 months, CakePHP/Facebook drops to zero. Link.
Right now, the trending languages for Facebook apps are C, Java, & C++. Link.
If you are more familiar with C/C++ then you will most likely find the learning curve for PHP a lot less steep : )
For something like a Facebook app and already knowing C, I would look into CakePHP. If you have time in the future look into RoR as it is an amazing platform.
Don't get me wrong, I love CakePHP. But if you don't have a background in web programming (PHP in particular), even CakePHP can take quite some time to be familiar with. RoR would be at the same learning curve, I suppose.
Besides, to deal with facebook API, you'll have to interact with it at 'base' level (by which I mean, the framework can't help you much with it). So to "quickly and easily just 'build' something like this for Facebook?" I don't think it's quite possible.
Anyway, if you still want to do it, CakePHP would be easier for you because PHP syntax would be similar to C and Java. But Ruby is an interesting and unique language if you have the time to spend on it.
I want to make a community based site, which is Drupal's strength. However I also want to try other frameworks, especially Rails.
One of the best things about drupal is its huge modules library. If I were to switch to Rails, would I be able to find similar functionality freely available as plugins, or would I have to rebuild?
Does Rails have the equivalent of (as plugins or gems):
CCK/Fields?
Node Reference?
Views / Views Relationships?
PathAuto?
Threaded Commenting?
Multisite Functionality?
Apache Solr (or equivalent) Integration?
Thanks.
I'm afraid you'll probably hear this answer a lot, but it's not a suitable comparison.
Drupal is a ultimately a CMS, Rails is a framework. Apples to oranges, or perhaps even Apple Juice to oranges. Out of the box, you fire up Drupal and it does 'things': it has a database structure, the concept of nodes, interfaces blah, blah. If you fire up Rails you have an empty project.
As far as I know there isn't a "Drupal-on-Rails" project that would be a suitable equivalent. However, I can attest to the fact that there is an awful lot of Ruby/Rails community and O/S work out there and you might find something suitable. I'd also say that the level of modularity in Ruby and Rails tends to mean that the range of plugins/modules/gems one can use is much greater.
My personal $0.02. If Drupal does what you need, just use Drupal: it's mature and has a great community. It's never a good idea to try to port Project X over to a new language as a learning exercise because you'll inevitable fall into the "Well that's how it's done in language X!" trap and become disenchanted with the new system.
If you're wanting to learn Rails (which you should, it's awesome) I'd suggest you'd be best working on a small project and seeing what the ecosystem offers before deciding if it's suitable for the needs of your bigger projects.
I have to second what Govan said, but add to it.
With Drupal, unless you really want to get into building your own modules and extensions you are really interacting with an application. Even when you start using CCK, all you are really doing is flipping switches, filling in forms and defining new options for content on the site.
Ruby on Rails is two things, and neither of them bares much similarity to Drupal. You asked "How hard is it really?". To answer that you need to understand what both Ruby and Rails are. Ruby is a programming language designed to make the life of the object purist programmer simpler and more pleasant. So, the first part of how hard is it is simply to answer "how long do you feel it would take you to learn a completely new programming language, like PHP but different".
Rails is an 'opinionated' framework. It's opinionated in that it lays out how a Ruby web project should be structured, as well as providing multiple APIs for everything from database access to web presentation. To answer the "how hard is it" question for Rails then (assuming you know Ruby by this point), you have to answer how much do you need to learn about cacheing, database design, page design, RESTful programming etc etc.
It's not a short journey. you asked if there is an equivalent to CCK for Ruby and Rails which implies to me that at this point your knowledge of programming is somewhat limited. Ruby and Rails interact with the database. CCK lets you define things in a database. Thus, with Ruby and Rails you are effectively bypassing the wonderful dialogs and forms that CCK provides you with and doing the data definition bits yourself, by hand, in code.
From experience, when I've hired experts in another programming language and framework into my Rails teams, it has taken them between 1 and 3 months to get productive, and a further 3 to 6 months for their productivity to start to raise and approach that of the Rails experts on my team.
Thus, in your particular case, I would not recommend a switch away from Drupal to Ruby on Rails.
Drupal (core) on ohloh (130k lines of code) is estimated to be 34 years of work worth.
Drupal (contributions) on ohloh (modules for Drupal 4-6 (7M lines of code)) is estimated to be 2113 years of work.
That is the power of a community, and that is something that you can never replicate. I remeber there was a guy, who tried to port Drupal to python calling it drupy, but that project died before something useful ever came out of it. Even if you copy the code, you can never copy the community.
The thing you need to realize, is that each community is different. So even if you find a project that can solve your code needs in a RoR or a different language/framework, it will never be like Drupal and vice versa.
So don't try to find a replacement for Drupal, but go explore and try new things. You might end up learning new things, that you can use for your Drupal projects.
I've read this times and times again that people saying comparing drupal an ror is comparing apple to orange which is wrong.
I think the saying itself BS. Yes we want to compare apple to orange and find out which is better. We even want to compare apple to steak. Said that, they are different. Yes, we all know. I have limited experience with either. I first thought Drupal was great and can help me build the website I wanted overnight (or over a week or month) then it didn't happen (not blaming Drupal).
My impression is that, Drupal maybe still great but it has a learning curve and needs a lot of other knowledge or talents to use it well and tweak it. RoR on the other hand is a more general framework and needs programming (Drupal needs too actually).
If you are more of a web designer person with a little PHP maybe Drupal is better fit.
If you are more of a web developer type don't want to spend time looking for modules and make them work but rather do them yourself (not really from ground up) then maybe RoR is for you (with the same amount of learning). So yes they are both good for different purpose, background, etc.
For now I will go with RoR (or dJango and other ORANGEs). My 2 cents.
Rails, since version 3.0, has officially adopted the once-controversial engine way of incorporating third-party apps. this is roughly the equivalent of Drupal's modules/plug-ins, from a 10k foot perspective. To build a community-based site, you could make use of an engine called, appropriately enough, "Community Engine." http://communityengine.org/features.html"
The Rails ecosystem doesn't have anywhere near the same number of modules Drupalists have available to them, but there are enough good quality ones to cover the chief basics.
Drupal has so many strong areas, its hard for just one or two people to recreate it in a decent amount of time with any language. PHP, Ruby, Python, etc.
You have the core node system, taxonomy, aliasing, menus, users, permissions, and modules, the database api, and form api, among others.
You'd have to know how to assemble all these pieces independently and create the structure necessary for it to all work together.
It would take more than 'a few hours'. I would say, even if you are a ROR master, you're looking at a year to two years of solid consistent work to get the best parts of Drupal for a new system.
In my next rails project I'm going to need blogging functionality. I'm wondering whether anyone has any good suggestions, or should I just roll my own? (Probably not in 15 minutes)
I think the most important feature will be to display code samples elegantly.
How's your free time?
Five years, that's how long that little idea took. Plus 2 years of adding bells and whistles. And that, folks, is why I'm giving in and using a blog host. Because I have lots of ideas, lots of things to say and to explore, but only a few dozen years left at best. I can't afford to go chasing every 5-year idea that springs to mind. After due consideration of the crap web frameworks and crap blog packages out there, I decided that I don't want to spend my next 5 years implementing my vision for a decent self-publishing system. Someone else can do it.
http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/blog-or-get-off-pot.html
It's a classic build-versus-buy (or, in this case, download for free) decision isn't it?
Write up the feature set of what you are looking for.
Survey the offerings out there to see how close a fit you have.
For the one or two products that is the closest fit, evaluate whether or not it would be less effort to write your own solution or customize the offering to do what you need.
If all you need is a blog site, then this is a no-brainer. Use WordPress and that's it.
If there are other features for this app and blogging is just one of them, then consider writing an app around WordPress. It is just a PHP application using MySql after all.
If WordPress has features or does things that you don't want, then maybe you do need to roll your own.
If the most important feature for this site is that it is to be written in RoR, then roll your own or find a RoR based blogging app as WordPress is not written in RoR. I haven't really done the homework on this but I would imagine that getting PHP and RoR to share session state would be a time consuming hack.
Rolling your own blog is a great project (and quite fun too!), but for practical usage, using something pre-made is going to be more secure, have more cool features, etc. etc. Unless you're incredibly dedicated, you'll probably end up cutting corners and end up with something that isn't quite what you want.
Despite being a Rails guy myself, I'm a huge fan of Wordpress. If you're looking for Rails-based blog engines, I've had luck with Mephisto, although the documentation leaves something to be desired. Radiant CMS is another CMS/Blog system that might be worth looking at.
A lot of Ruby/Rails developers have actually gone the route of using static website/blog generators. This has a few advantages. First, the pages are static HTML with no dependency on a database. This means they can be served by your front-end Web server (Apache, Nginx, etc.) faster than if they were to go through Mongrel, Thin or Phusion Passenger. Secondly, the pages will be easier for search engines to index. Finally, and probably most importantly, you can easily version control your posts using Git (or your favorite SCM)
I switched my blog over to a static model after development on Mephisto seemed to stall. I am using Tom Preston-Werner's Jekyll and Disqus for the comments. Works great. Give it a try!
If you are just looking for a project, then building your own blog engine is a good start.
Personally, though I have been a full-time Rails developer for the past 3 years, I still use and recommend Wordpress for myself and others.
If the project is to write a blog, don't roll your own. There are plenty solutions out there that will solve this problem for you while you worry about pumping out great content.
You will end up spending to much time futzing with the little things that don't really matter.
Probably there are tons of those.
For example, Rastafari, or Enkiblog.
In my next rails project I'm going to
need blogging functionality. I'm
wondering whether anyone has any good
suggestions, or should I just role my
own? (Probably not in 15 minutes)
I wouldn't recommend rolling your own blog system. You should look into using Radiant CMS with a blog extension.
I think the most important feature will be to display code samples elegantly.
For this I can recommend looking into SyntaxHighlighter.
All depends on your goal:
If it is for learning purposes and it's for fun, code it from scratch. Also, try to add new functionality that you will not find in current blogging platforms. For example, make in a way that is easy for a developer to blog tutorials or screencasts.
If it's for a client or just to blog, use wordpress. You can have your site in ruby and then link to wordpress. Think about it, how many human hours are behind wordpress so for you to match that you will need to work full time on it for 8 years.
Wordpress will work out of the box and then periodically you can tweak it, depending on future needs.
I agree, for fun and learning, code from scratch. But consider coding something people really need and don't already have. Innovate.
There are so many excellent blog platforms out there, and some (like Wordpress) have active developer communities writing hundreds of useful and powerful plugins. And that includes some excellent support for code samples.
No need to reinvent the wheel.