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I am looking to start developing a relatively simple web application that will pull data from various sources and normalizing it. A user can also enter the data directly into the site. I anticipate hitting scale, if successful. Is it worth putting in the time now to use scalable or distributed technologies or just start with a LAMP stack? Framework or not? Any thoughts, suggestions, or comments would help.
Disregard my vague description of the idea, I'd love to share once I get further along.
Later. I can't remember who said it (might have been SO's Jeff Atwood) but it rings true: your first problem is getting other people to care about your work. Worry about scale when they do.
Definitely go with a well structured framework for your own sanity though. Even if it doesn't end up with thousands of users, you'll want to add features as time goes on. Maintaining an expanding codebase without good structure quickly becomes fairly horrible (been there, done that, lost the client).
btw, if you're tempted to write your own framework, be aware that it is a lot of work. My company has an in-house one we're quite proud of, but it's taken 3-4 years to mature.
Is it worth putting in the time now to use scalable or distributed technologies or just start with a LAMP stack?
A LAMP stack is scalable. Apache provides many, many alternatives.
Framework or not?
Always use the highest-powered framework you can find. Write as little code as possible. Get something in front of people as soon as you can.
Focus on what's important: Get something to work.
If you don't have something that works, scalability doesn't matter, does it?
Then read up on optimization. http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RulesOfOptimization is very helpful.
Rule 1. Don't.
Rule 2. Don't yet.
Rule 3. Profile before Optimizing.
Until you have a working application, you don't know what -- specific -- thing limits your scalability.
Don't assume. Measure.
That means build something that people actually use. Scale comes later.
Absolutely do it later. Scaling pains is a good problem to have, it means people like your project enough to stress the hardware it's running on.
The last company I worked at started fairly small with PHP and the very very first versions of CakePHP that came out (when it was still in beta). Some of the code was dirty, the admin tool was a mess (code-wise), and sure it could have been done better from the start. But do you know what? They got it out the door before their competitors did, and became extremely successful.
When I came on board they were starting to hit the limits of their current potential scalability, and that is when they decided to start looking at CDN's, lighttpd caching techniques, and other ways to clean up the code and make things run smoother when under heavy load. I don't work for them anymore but it was a good experience in growing an architecture beyond what it was originally scoped at.
I can tell you right now if they had tried to do the scalability and optimizations before selling content and getting a website live - they would never have grown to the size they are now. The company is www.beatport.com if you're interested in who I'm talking about (To re-iterate, I'm not trying to advertise them as I am no longer affiliated with them, but it stands as a good case study and it's easier for people to understand what I'm talking about when they see their website).
Personally, after working with Ruby and Rails (and understanding the separation!) for a couple of years, and having experience with PHP at Beatport - I can confidently say that I never want to work with PHP code again =p
Funny to ask "scale now or later?" and label it "ruby on rails".
Actually, Ruby on Rails was created by David Heinemeier Hansson, who has a whole chapter in his book labeled "Scale later" :))
http://gettingreal.37signals.com/ch04_Scale_Later.php
I agree with the earlier respondents -- make it useful, make it work and get people motivated to use it first. I also agree that you should pick off-the shelf components (of which there are many) rather than roll your own, as much as possible. At the same time, make sure that you choose components for your infrastructure that you know to be scalable so that you can go there when you need to, without having to re-write major chunks of your application.
As the Product Manager for Berkeley DB, I've seen countess cases of developers who decided "Oh, we'll just write that to a flat file" or "I can write my own simple B-tree function" or "Database XYZ is 'good enough', I don't have to worry about concurrency or scalability until later". The problem with that approach is that a) you're re-inventing the wheel (and forgoing what others have learned the hard way already) and b) you're ignoring the fact that you'll have to deal with scalability at some point and going with a 'good enough' solution.
Good luck in your implementation.
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I work as a lone developer in a very small company. My work is quite chaotic and I'm looking for ways to make it more organized.
One problem is that my projects have practically no management. Rarely anyone asks me what I'm doing, or if I have any problems. At some point there was talk about weekly status meetings, but that's some time ago. Seems that if I'd want something like that, I would have to arrange those myself.. Sometimes I'm a bit lost on what I should do next because I don't have tasks or a clear schedule defined.
From books and articles I have found many things that might be helpful. Like having a good coding standard (there exists only a rough style guide which is somewhat outdated in my opinion), code inspections, TDD, unit testing, bug database... But in a small company it seems there are no resources or time for anything that's not essential. The fact that I work in the embedded domain seems to make things only more complicated.
I feel there's also a custom of cutting corners and doing quick hacks on short notice. This leads to unfinished and unprofessional products and bugs waiting to emerge at a later date. I would imagine they are also a pain to maintain. So, I'm about to inherit a challenging code base, doing new development that requires learning a lot of new things and I guess trying to build a process for it all at the same time. It might be rewarding in the end, but as not too experienced I'm not sure if I can pull it off.
In a small shop like this the environment is far from optimal for programming. There's many other things needed to be done occasionally like customer support, answering the phone, signing parcels, hardware testing, assembly and whatever miscellaneous tasks might appear. So you get the idea about the resources. It's not all bad (sometimes it's enlightening to solve some customer problems) and I believe it can be improved, but it's the other things that I'm really concerned.
Is it possible to have a development process in a place like this?
Would it help to have some sort of management? What kind of?
Is it possible to make quality products with small resources?
How do I convince myself and others that the company which has worked successfully for decades needs to change? What would be essential?
Maybe there's someone working in a similar shop?
Use Source Control for EVERYTHING
Develop specifications and get signoff before starting - there will be resistance, but explain it's for their own good.
Unit tests! It hurts because you just want to get it done, but this will save you in the long run.
Use bug tracking - Bugzilla or FogBugz if you can afford it.
My advice is not to be extreme. From my experience, pure agile or pure traditional will not work. Before you use any process, know what it mean to solve.
I personally use a variation of Agile RUP. I do some upfront effort such as investigate the actual needs, do high-level design with possible extension. And ask customer to sign-off some major high-level requirements.
If you work in small group, detail design or specification may not worth. Of course, if there is some libraries that are shared by many, it will be worth the trouble.
Deciding what to invest in up-front depending on its risk (likelihood and effect).
Moreover, many SW best practice is really 'best' like version control, automatic testing (to me I only used it way to early detect regression as I do not believe in TDD as driven force of the development). I suggest you read 'Pragmatic Programmer' it presents many of those techines.
As to answer you questions:
(1). Is it possible to have a development process in a place like this?
Yes, but as I say, trailer it to fit your organization.
(2). Would it help to have some sort of management? What kind of?
Management helps but no control freak. Plan what to do when: integrate, resolve conflict, dead line of some mile stone. And roughly keep them on schedule (I particularly like Scrum's sprint).
(3). Is it possible to make quality products with small resources?
Definitely as soon as the size of the work, the time to develop and the size of the team is balance. If you definition of Quality is the same with me. To me, Quality means: solve the problem it set out to in an efficient and reliable fashion.
(4). How do I convince myself and others that the company which has worked successfully for decades needs to change? What would be essential?
Point out the problems. If there are none, why change? If you want to change, you should be able to identify the problem OR potential problems. Point out the problem.
Some big one are:
Without any process, it is harder for new recruited to blend in as they must learn from observing other how to deal with things.
Without process, it is harder to work in stress.
Without schedule, it is hard to determine the progress.
Without automatic testing, it will takes more time to identify problems and regression.
Without version control, it will be harder to roll-back mistake and separation of work to each team members will be mess.
Just my though.
You need to work with the owner and setup short medium and long term goals. You will want to let them know progress even if only through email.
You will need to enforce some order on your workday or you will never get anything done (those long term goals).
Divide your day up into chunks when you can code, when you are working on hacks to keep it togther, when answering emails etc.
Definitely setup a bug tracker. This can help keep your email clean. You can even setup an email address to forward bugs to be categorized later. This is good because the bug reporters will eventually tire of the bug tracker and want to just email you the bugs anyway.
edit
And as lod3n said, source control, but you are using that already right???!!?!
Been there, done that.
The book Planning Extreme Programming helped a lot. I used 3x5 cards stuck on a wall. This kept my boss informed of my progress, helped with estimates and planning, and kept me on track. The Planning Game gives good ammo if your boss's expectations are unrealistic.
Unit testing, as others have stated, helps even if you're a sole developer. I find the TDD style valuable.
lod3n is absolutely right about Source Control.
I've gone with XP-style iterations before; you may want to establish a backlog of items (even something simple like a spreadsheet or 3x5 cards) as well.
Avoid deathmarches. Stick to 40 hours in the sense of not working overtime 2 weeks in a row. Spend extra time outside of work learning new skills - not just technologies, but principles and best practices.
Have a bug tracking system, both for defects and new features. Don't rely on your memory.
Continuous integration and an automated build can help even a single developer.
Can't emphasize the recommendation for source control enough.
I've decided I don't need unit tests because I can have automated functional/integration tests instead: because with incremental development there's no need to test before integration.
as crazy as this sounds I use scrum just because I like the concepts of sprints, and backlogs. It makes it easier to set realistic goals. Of course the idea of scrum master and team is all you but if you are working on outside projects where it is possible that you may pick up an extra team member with your backlogs it will be easy to distribute work. Maybe I just like backlogs. With scrum you will need to get someone to be the product manager to talk about the features of the product. Version control is a must at probably should be implemented b4 even worrying about a software development process. I have worked in a company that started from 2 developers and went to 12 in a year. We started with no version control and low coding standards. The changes you will need to make will be gradual so don't worry about rushing to do a 180. Set a goal to change one thing a month and find supporters of your changes to make things go smooth.
As well as the recommedations of others I'd say that if you are tight on resources but have more say over how things get done you should make good use of off the shelf and open source products and libraries. This leverages the efforts of others, saving you time, ensures your code base doesn't become too esoteric and adds to your skillset so you don't end up being an expert in something that's useless everywhere else.
First, lets make a distinction between a development process and best practices. Best practices like source control, defect tracking, unit testing, etc. are an given.
Then there is the actual development processes. I would always recommend having a process, no matter small or large the team is. The trick is finding the right process. You have a process now - it is just an ad-hoc process that doesn't seem to be working out too well for for you. Rarely can you take a textbook development process and directly apply it. What you need to do is tailor the process to your companies needs and culture. Look at as many development paradigms as you can and try to find something that is a good fit and them start molding it to your needs. You may have to try and fail with a number of different processes. Perhaps the Personal Software Process will be a good starting process, maybe an agile process, a variant of RUP? You have a lot of options, start trying them out.
You are also going to have to work with the rest of your organization - they need to be a part of the process. You may be the lone developer, but a development process involves more than the developer, it involves ever person that has a say or impact in the product.
This may not be a specific answer, but my point is that you will need some kind of process. So start researching them and trying them out and molding them to your needs until you have something that works.
When writing code for a new system I don't want to introduce unnecessary complexity in the design that I might never have any need for. So I'm following YAGNI here, and rather refactoring as I see the need for more flexibility or as responsibilities becomes more clear. This allows me to move faster.
But there is a problem here with junior devs, in that they will not recognize when to refactor or where build out the design. They just stuff more code into the existing design.
So, what are the best ways to tackle this? Should I more often build a more future-proof design so when adding to it they have a good example to follow, even if we might never have to add anything? Or should I just go ahead with more code reviews, education, etc? Or both?
Have any of you had any experience with this type of problem? How did you solve it?
I would recommend code reviews or pair programming. It gives you the chance to educate your fellow developers and increase the overall quality.
Perhaps you begin by recognizing explicitly that part of your job is to help develop the junior devs. If you're not the boss, management should sign off on this. Management needs to recognize that your choices are to develop them now or clean up after them later, and you need management's backing for the time this will take.
Code reviews and pair programming are fine ideas. They are especially good because they are not "just for junior people"–I do both with one of my close colleagues; together we are nearly 100 years old and have more than 70 years of programming experience :-)
But there's a larger problem here: the programming methodology that enables you to be most effective (YAGNI + refactor) is not effective for your junior partners. My experience is that it takes people years to learn the benefits of YAGNI, so if you expect them just to learn your way of doing things, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
I would encourage you to identify some methodology that you think is going to be useful with your junior partners. The particular methodology probably doesn't matter (heresy!); I've had success with composite/structured design, object-based design, algebraic specification (!), and extreme programming. But
Do pick something that has a name and some literature devoted to it, that your juniors can take pride in learning, and that is a skill they can carry to future projects.
In order to show that it is tasty, you may need to eat the dog food yourself. Pick something you can live with and be productive in.
Observe your juniors carefully and teach them a decision procedure they can use to identify when they should ask you for guidance.
Good luck!
There is a reason they are junior and you are senior.
The ability to realise when a change in design is needed is one of them.
I would carry on as you are but encourage them to come to you when things are getting difficult. You can then work with them to alter the design if needed, this will be easier for you than refactoring it and will help you pass on knowledge to your junior developers.
A very good way to show how far to build out a design is to be specify about what the design will do when built out, then write tests to cover the new functionality. When the tests pass, development is done.
You might realize along the way that you forgot to test for something. That's fine, and is useful feedback to help you specify better next time. Write the missing test(s), and only enough code to make them pass.
Then refactor. Knowing what to look for when refactoring takes a bit of practice. Start with
Is there duplication in the code we've just written that we can eliminate?
Is there duplication between what we've just written and pre-existing code?
Does the code we've just written concern itself with too many things? (I.e., should we break out collaborators?)
Repeat this a few dozen times, and it'll get easier.
Another way of looking at YAGNI is that any changes to code need to be justified.
Might it be helpful to require any commit needs an associated unit test (or BDD user story, choose your poison)? It helps to communicate your intent (you want people to think about why they are adding this feature) and you get regression tests for free.
Also gets the noobs to start thinking about modularity (usually needed to make your code testable) and will help a lot if you do need to refactor later on.
I'm all for code reviews and teaching, but I think futureproof design is also important. Maybe you could think of it in terms of you designing an API and the junior developers using the API. In this way you are the one who does the hard work that they would screw up (identifying duplicated code and eliminating it) while they do all the grunt work that isn't a productive use of your time.
Of course this has to be balanced with a need to develop your junior developers skills. Neither side of the equation can be neglected.
It may help to map out what work they will do and then verify it to help build their sense of judgement which is really what you are asking, to my mind. Pairing is one option but if you can't spare that much time then having a sort of "check point" to see how they are doing and preventing them from going down the wrong path.
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Our company has been thinking about scrapping our interview procedures and bringing each candidate in for a 4-5 hours sit-down with some of the programmers and just do some pair programming.
I like the idea in theory but I am not sure how you can really make it fair for each candidate. How would you rate them? Wouldn't their input really depend on what each programmer was working on that day?
Any thoughts on whether this is a good idea/bad idea or how to make it work is what I am kind of looking for here.
Cheers!
EDIT:
RESULT - AS requested
We are going to conduct the first steps of the interview the same as before. Phone followed by face to face. Instead of bringing them back for a third and final grilling, we are going to bring 3 developers back to sit with all 7 members of the team. We have decided to let the team decide who is then hired.
We have come to this conclusion for a couple of reasons. We believe this will empower the developers by giving them a choice who they are working. The second reason is group dynamic. We think it is really important to have a good group dynamic and it is hard to tell until after you hire a person if they will fit in or not.
So the end result is we are going to go ahead with the pair programming sessions but in a completely different way and for a completely different way than was originally intended.
Any thoughts or criticism of this approach is more than welcome!!
(this edit is posted as an answer below so feel free to downvote if you feel this is not the best approach)
Unless you use pair programming extensively in your real-world development, I'd be very hesitant to use this. I've met any number of high-quality professional developers who have mentioned a strong aversion to pair programming and whose skill would not be well-judged in such a process.
I hope you have a bunch of steps ahead of this one. For this to work you need an excellent resume and phone screen. You don't want to spend oodles of time on candidates that you shouldn't be talking to in the first place.
So you suggest an initial interview
and possibly have the second interview
as the pair programming session? – Ted
Smith (1 min ago)
Yeah. You might even think of having a simple coding interview happen over the web using something like CoPilot.
The easiest way is to give each person the same programmer to work with and the exact same piece of code.
The problem you're going to run into, is that hiring isn't like programming. There isn't a step by step process to lead to the right answer as to who to hire. (you can have multiple steps to make the decision easier). You have to evaluate each one on their strengths etc. and essentially make an educated guess as to which is the best one to hire. Sometimes you guess wrong.
The other thing about pair programming you're going to have to watch out for is the amount of time necessary to have each candidate at that stage go through that kind of a test. If I were looking for a job, I would be hesitant to go an interview at a company that would ask me to do that. Why? Because that is a lot of time, and if I am interviewing at multiple places, I could spend literally days just going to interviews for jobs I may not even get or want. Someplaces like Google or MS would be an exception, but most places are not like those two. (Not to mention the fact that if they are working on real code, you are essentially asking them to do someone's job for free).
As a personal anecdote, I got smacked around in an interview because of a technique like this. I had gone far in their interview process; passed the resume checks, the code submission and this was the face to face portion of the interview.
I was fresh out of university and had never pair programmed before nor done TDD. They sat me down to do a deck of card exercise and it flopped. Badly! I didn't understand why the interviewer was writing tests that seemed so dumb* (IE "return null;") and they didn't explain why and of course being foreign to TDD I didn't know what questions to ask. The end result was that it looked like I couldn't program my way out of a paper bag.
If you're going to do this type of exercise you need to cater to the interviewee because they're going to be in different spots with their aptitude. This means that you'll get different assessments that may not be based on actual talent and are thus going to be heavily biased.
**Now that I understand TDD, I do understand tests like this and how it's supposed to work, but man did that ever seem stupid at the time!*
I just had an interview with a San Francisco based company that prides itself on Agile methods/etc. I was to interview the CEO himself. I have about 20 years of experience in the industry, but have never pair programmed or developed using TDD approach. I was told it would be a "programming interview" but had not idea what to expect, and before we started the guy said that he thought that I may agree that all interviews should be done this way. (which in retrospect was nothing more than an arrogant statement).
Anyway, at the interview the exercise was to develop a class using TDD. It took me a second to adjust my thinking on the entire process, again since I had never pair programmed or done TDD. While I stumbled here and there I did ok in the end. but his reply was the I did not exhibit the aggressive back-and-forth nature that they require for their pair programming environment. Now, that could also have been an underhanded way of saying that "I didn't think you did great" kind of message.
Luckily I didn't need the job and to be honest the experience made me realize that I'd rather find a different career than having to be a software engineer that HAS to work in pairs, day in day out, when it came to developing code. Odd thing is that on occasion I have worked with another person on code simultaneously, so anything is possible.
In end I guess it was a good outcome since they didn't think I was a good fit and I didn't care for their working methods. But we would have came to the same conclusion had I talked a for a few minutes more about myself and had he given me a little more info on how they go about their work. Which is to say that there are other ways of finding a good fit candidate than putting them through the stress of pair programming with a complete stranger; bogus way to gauge competency imo.
One particular company uses a technique called extreme interviewing. For the extreme interview they will bring in say 30 developers and group them into 15 pairs. They will explain that they are looking for people who work well with others. That they will make a hiring decision based solely on their ability to work with others.
They will provide a problem for the pairs to solve. They will emphasis that they are not interested in the solution just each programmers ability to work with others. For each pair they will provide an observer of the pair. During the exercise (about 2 to 4 hours in duration), the observer will takes notes about a person ability to pair ... not the solution.
They are amazed how many programmers focus on solving the problem instead of collaborating. Of the 15 pairs, they will identify about 4 to 6 developers for a second interview. Those developers will be asked to come back and spend a week with the team (they get paid). After a week, they decide who to keep. Generally about half of them (2 to 3 developers).
When they are done, they have developers that are able to collaborate and after a week working with various pairs, the team has a strong indication who can effectively develop software. The process is both innovative and effective. They have had a high success rate with those they have hired.
I just had a pair programming interview a few days ago and to be honest, I don't really like it. I was notified of this a day just before the interview and then the interviewer told me that pair programming is what eventually I am going to do anyway in work. I went into the office and was paired up with someone who is a very senior software engineer. The company is in San Francisco and they are a well renowned company for pair programming, everyone pair programs in the office. At first it seemed to be fine, he explained about all the tools they used, their own unit testing framework that they build, and a bit of the project. He then basically wrote a bunch of unit tests and wanted me to work on the implementation to make it pass. Just as an FYI, the code base that already exists is huge, I would say 10k lines, it's not like a super complex project, but it is complex for someone to just step in and then write code without prior understanding of the class hierarchy etc. I find it really hard to believe that he expects someone to jump right away in a 10k line of source code that already exists. It just doesn't match for a pair programming interview, a smaller code base would help. I struggled a bit from navigating through the classes and going back and forth because I can't remember class names as I was overwhelmed by the amount of classes/code that already exists. To be honest, this really made me do horrible in the interview process. In the end I didn't feel really good about it. I haven't done pair programming before, mostly is just during assignments in my college year.
To me the power of pair programming can be harnessed if you're already proficient/comfortable with your pair, but is not really suitable for interview. Sometimes I would like to ask questions to my pair, but then I thought if I ask too much questions, then they would assume I were stupid and can't perform. If this was already on a real job, I wouldn't hesitate to ask, but in an interview it's hard.. you want to ask because your pair should help you out when you're stuck, but at the same time it's an interview, so you can't really ask much.
That is just my experience that I have from pair programming interview, my suggestion if you really want to do this:
be sure that you don't give the candidate to work with a large code base, work with a
smaller one and therefore he/she can show his/her skills to the max
be up front with the candidate before pair programming interview, can you ask questions
when you're stuck, should you be able to do this and that, what can't you do
be as detailed as possible
In the end, I wouldn't suggest it. It's hard to measure a candidate's performance in pair programming, and it might be biased as well.
I like this idea. However I think it might be difficult to do since it would require the candidate to have some knowledge of the project you would pair on with him. Also, 4 to 5 hours seems a bit long. What if you immediately see that it is not going to work out, are you going to sit through the whole session with the candidate?
Good question though. Stuff to think about.
Why not? Also, it's not like interviews are always (or ever) fair. You should evaluate the end results of the new approach against the traditional interview-based approach.
Also, a mini interview before the pair programming session might be good to keep from wasting the programmers' time with people who would be a bad fit.
From my limited experience, my feelings are mixed. I like the idea of pairing as part of an interview, esp. if the company uses pairing often, because it gives both a better feel for the fit. As a candidate, I've often gone through interviews where I sat in a room answering questions for a few hours, but afterward didn't have a good feel for what it would really be like to work in their environment. Pairing may be more beneficial than a random coding exercise, unless the interviewer is skilled at working someone through those. And I like being able to discuss technical stuff from both sides. And as a candidate, I'd rather interact with someone than just answer questions or solve code problems on my own.
But... as others have noted, the time needed can be an issue. I've gone through a couple days of pairing interviews and found some periods good, while others felt like a few hours were wasted: one because the developer wasn't working on something that lent itself to pairing (esp. given my background), the other because an env issue prevented much useful work for a while. If the job doesn't work out, it can be frustrating to have taken a day or two off work for this.
One place trying this approach wasn't sure if they should have someone outside the company working on a customer's project. They also worried that explaining the domain and work being done would take too long, though without that the candidate may not be able to contribute much. So they chose an open source project the employee was working on.
This seems to be a key point: there needs to be a well chosen task that the candidate can understand quickly and be able to contribute to. The latter part will depend somewhat on the candidate's skills. Also key would be the employee's ability to evaluate someone with this approach. Not everyone is great at normal interviewing, and that's probably more true of a pairing interview.
Also, if a company doesn't do much pairing then this kind of interview may not be as useful. There does seem benefit in seeing someone code (as Joel Spolsky notes), and this could be a good way to do that. But if pairing is not a typical part of the job, then perhaps a full pairing session isn't appropriate. Maybe a modified version.
I'd be curious what companies who have taken this approach think of the results. Reading some of the other answers to this question shows that it doesn't always seem ideal from the candidate's view.
To keep it fair, you'd have to make every participating staff member have a prepared problem to evaluate the candidate on. Preferably something taken form the real world in their company experience, but something that has already been resolved. This is a good chance to evaluate the knowledge on a problem and evaluate not just programming skills.
I hate it when too specific questions are answered. I had an interview once where a programmer was testing my knowledge of the STL which I used extensively and was trying to get me to answer that a custom allocator was needed. I had heard of them but never used them (esp in windows) and was made to feel dumb. IOW, avoid being judgmental.
So my point is, ask practical questions that aren't so much about testing programming knowledge as you can evaluate more qualitative personality and problem-solving approaches if you use the "pair programming" idea.
Good question!
Honestly, that sounds like a great idea, though Jason Punyon is certainly right that you should do a lot of weeding before you waste significant amounts of your developers' time on culls. You get a glimpse at an important metric out of it that's otherwise nearly unobtainable in interviewing: what someone's like to work with.
I don't think there's really any need to be concerned about it being "fair" based on the subject matter or trying to present consistent situations to different candidates, if you maintain the right evaluatory attitude -- that it isn't about whether they "got the right answer" or jumped through the right set of hoops, but what sort of effort, problem-solving, communication aptitude and flexibility they showed. You'd lose most of the benefit of the exercise by turning it into an artificial test, not to mention changing it from something that your developers can get some benefit from (or at least still get some work done during) to a massive waste of their time.
Joel Spolsky has an excellent Guerrilla Guide to Interviewing which talks about, amongst other things, programming tasks.
Trivia: Joel Spolsky is a co-founder of stackoverflow.com
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Closed 11 years ago.
Do you think having a great memory is REQUIRED to be a great programmer?
I don't consider myself a great programmer but I do think I am decent. But my memory is REALLY bad so I find myself always having to remind myself how to do things. I mean I "know where to look" but sometimes it makes me feel like I am just a crappy programmer. What makes it even worse is that I am always forgetting where things are in my source code or what algorithm I used for certain situations.
Think back on the great programmers you have encountered in your life, didn't all of them seem to have amazing memories?
Surely apocrapful, but here's Einstein's number:
A reporter interviewed Albert
Einstein. At the end of the interview,
the reporter asked if he could have
Einstein's phone number so he could
call if he had further questions.
“Certainly” replied Einstein. He
picked up the phone directory and
looked up his phone number, then wrote
it on a slip of paper and handed it to
the reporter.
Dumbfounded, the reporter said, "You
are considered to be the smartest man
in the world and you can't remember
your own phone number?”
Einstein replied, “Why should I
memorize something when I know where
to find it?”
I have this coworker that writes really bad code that is incredibly hard to maintain. I've come to the conclusion that his problem is good memory. He's simply able to remember where he put what functionality. Therefore he doesn't have to write code that is self-explanatory. He simply remembers that crap. The rest of us have a really hard time figuring out his code.
I'm sure that good memory isn't that guys only problem. But I'm sure his code would improve if his memory got worse.
Treat your short term memory as stack (not static) and don't expect much more from it. I've come back to code that I wrote only a month ago and its almost like someone else wrote it .. it just takes a while to get back in the same zone.
I get teased, often for leaving comments for myself like breadcrumbs .. but it works. If I finish some function and say "AHA, that is absolutely BRILLIANT!", I immediately comment my complexity as I'm sure to forget.
So now, to answer a question with two questions:
What did you have for lunch last Wednesday?
What is the purpose for 'counter' in hash_foo() ?
At least, with #2, you can quickly go back and look / remember.
As long as you can remember how g-o-o-g-l-e is spelt, you're fine. :)
But seriously, you do need to keep several things in yoru short term memory at once. Longer term memory is I think less important. As long as you're aware that something exists, you've seen something before, etc then when it becomes relevant you'll know you can dig it up.
Experienced programmers can generally regurgitate APIs, minor details and so forth but in my experience this has never been a case of sitting down and memorizing things by rote. It's a natural consequence of using things again and again.
I would say the opposite, having a good memory may lead to writing code which only the author can understand, because she remembers the details of its logic. On the other hand I, having bad memory, document my code and write it as clear as possible.
Honestly, I've found poor memory to be an asset, even poor short term memory. Poor short term memory really forces you to break out the separation of concerns. The end result is very clean, very simple, very well encapsulated code. I actually have pretty good short term memory, but I've learned to try really hard not to employ it after a few experiences writing code while I was distracted enough that I couldn't really retain much at once. I was actually shocked to observe that the code was actually far cleaner than code I'd developed im the past.
Poor long term memory is an asset, because you end up training yourself very well on how to find and learn techniques, API's, algorithm's, etc. It also tends to encourage you to find a small set of common themes to guide you in your work.
All in all, the mark of a good programmer isn't complexity (which is really difficult to achieve without good memory), but simplicity (which by nature doesn't require much memory).
I can answer exactly this using just one word: NO. Having great memory to memorize all about programming is not a must. Experiences and the tedious learning by practice are the best.
I also have experienced this. If you have enough experience hours (or can be years) creating softwares with best practices applied, then you're a truly master on your own job or on programming languages you use to create softwares. Please don't be sad if you have bad memories, but striving to always learn and practice can defeat your memory weakness.
To me, there are two kinds of programmers in the world. The first were born to do it, the second learnt. In both groups they range from unbelievably poor to unbelievably great. Does memory denote those ratings? No, absolutely not. While a good memory can help you with learning, nothing helps you more than practice and understanding. After all, being able to remember the entire Encyclopaedia Brittanica means nothing without understanding. My server's storage is a classic example there.
Programming is about logic, both in the code and how you approach the problem. If you want clear, easy to understand code then chances are you'll break the problem into small manageable chunks (i.e. that fit in your head in their entirity) and work on each one. Each function then condenses down into a single command for your next stage of complexity. At the end of that next stage, if there is another, you'll have a set of single commands again to build on. Logical naming, logical partitioning, logical assembly... I think I'm getting my logical point across ;)
My memory is appalling, and I mean appalling. I can be introduced to 3 people and by the time #3's name is said I've forgotten who #1 is. I can still write some good code, not everytime or everyday; when you're in the zone it's something else, at that point it is art. So, put your memory to one side, get yourself either a really quiet space or a pink noise generator and dive in. The only thing that's going to make you a better programmer is practice, practice, practice. The only thing to remember is that programming is a skill and skills are practiced, and best practiced among friends who can give constructive criticism and advice... like Stack Overflow :)
Apologies for the tome level of this answer but I couldn't remember what I'd already written ;)
Having a good memory is quite useful but certainly not required. I would say that it's not that great programmers have a great memory but rather, they have spent a lot of time investigating even the littlest issues which improved their understanding and improves recall. If you spend 4 minutes resolving a problem (Googling or asking in SO) then you probably won't remember the resolution when you hit it again 4 months down the line. IT could be an evolutionary trait or just a bad memory =)
Good programmers also have well thought out principles which allows them to work on auto-pilot without second-guessing themselves. A good set of principles also achieves consistency and predictability (which is a quality of memory) through reinforcement.
This also extends into other domains. Chess grandmasters can recall an entire game played 40 years ago. That's because they remember patterns (openings, variations, root cause and effect of moves which led to the end game, etc). which helps group individual moves into units.
In software, tools can like auto-complete or having a KB/Wiki and searchable check-in history etc can help.
No. But maybe it can make you great...
An art of programming (maybe the art) is being able to approach problems in such a way that you can grasp the whole of them, despite your limitations (such as imperfect memory). This is because everyone - including the smartest of us - has limitations. Bumping into your limitations is not a sign that you have limitations, but a sign that you are reaching further.
This art (insofar as I know it) includes things like divide and conquer (using modules of various kinds, to match the shape of the problem); using standard techniques to telegraph your intention (idioms, OO Design Patterns are just one); separating out the core of the problem (this one is not about the code: it's about the problem); and of course comments.
I used to believe that good code was self-documenting (and even, that code is truth), but recently I'm writing parsers, and including the CFG in a comment is a very helpful reference, because it is a much simpler representation of the intention of the code.
A coder's gotta know their limitations. It's unrealistic to expect to have the same grasp of something months later, as when you were in the thick of it. All the above involve accepting that problem, and working on a solution. Not only does it make your code easier for you to grasp later on, it makes it easier for someone else to grasp... but most importantly I firmly believe that clearer and simpler code is fundamentally, and transcendentally, better code.
The competent programmer is fully aware of the strictly limited size of his own skull; therefore he approaches the programming task in full humility, and among other things he avoids clever tricks like the plague. - Dijkstra
In allusion to Edsger Dijkstra, a competent programmer is fully aware of the limited size of his own skull. The more details you don't cram in your head, the better you can tackle the problem at hand.
Modularize your code very much, refactor code, package your nifty algorithms to objects, and use those objects, in that way, you don't always have to "micro-remember" each and every implementation details of your programs.
No. The ability to forget about what you know and continue learning is at least equally important in the long term.
Good notes and bookmarks and web searches go a long way.
Remembering the really simple things is required for great programming. Things as simple as "keep at it".
An interesting perspective from the other side of your monitor: Locality of Reference
I think one benefit to having a good memory (modesty point: I have a good memory) is the ability to be able to think on your feet when not actually in front of a computer.
For example, you might be in a meeting when some new kind of functionality for your app is suggested. Can it be done? How long is it likely to take? These are questions which are easier to answer if you can pretty much walk through 250k loc in your head.
That said, I find a grain of truth in others opinions that my own code might be less clear because I can remember it better.
Some of the best-written code I've ever seen was written in such a way that each design decision was inevitable, and the code read as its own explanation. That's far better IMHO than code which requires the reader (or, worse, the maintainer) to keep tons of arbitrary detail memorized.
My own index of complexity in code is "How much stuff do I have to keep in mind to understand this one line?"
More is worse.
I think having good memory is helpful for learning new things quickly.
This doesn't mean it is a requirement for being a great programmer.
In fact it is more about intelligence rather than memory capabilities, but it's too much of a complex subject to be able to identify certain qualities and compare them with programming skills, and be able to retrieve any relevant info.
That is the mystery of the brain.
Occam's Razor suggests that a simpler theory is likelier to be true.
If code is a theory, describing inputs going to outputs, then shorter code, using expected idioms and libraries, is more likely to be "true" - that is, it is more likely to capture the essence of the solution, so it will generalize to inputs that you didn't expect.
Shorter, unsurprising code is easier to remember.
It all depends on what your good memory remembers..
I've worked on the same project for 10 years or so and I can't remember every line and who wrote it and why.
But... I can remember pretty much all the user requests and user issues. Who wanted what and when.
I can remember pretty much all the support issues we have had.
Finding old code is easy - we have great tools for that. Finding old issues is a much more abstract process: we have JIRA and Wikis but sometimes they don't cut it because they fail to provide the semantic meaning.
So. Pay attention to what REALLY matters and remember that.
Programmers with poor memory are like Universal Turing machines compared to practical computers: technically you can accomplish the same things by referring to information you or someone else has recorded somewhere... it's just that it may take a little longer....
I think it's possible to be able remember different types of things with differing degrees of aptitude.
For example, I sometimes find I have a pretty bad memory when it comes to random facts and figures, as well as things that I've done or will be doing - the latter meaning I find bug-tracking software an invaluable tool.
On the other hand, I can remember the structure of complex pieces of software I've written, and where to find specific things within that.
This may be about logical association. Well-designed software should (in theory) have a logical structure, which may make it easier to store in your memory if your brain is wired up that way.
Random piece of information, however, may not have these associations, making them harder to remember.
I would say its necessary for being great and fast. My memory for programming details is OK (but I have google for that). However, when I sit in front of applications that I've primarily written (~30-40 k lines of code) I'm able to load its structure almost completely into my memory. I can find the way I'm doing something in a couple of seconds and recall why I implemented it the way I did. That's invaluable. By 11 am I've been able to do more work than some others do all day. Now, that doesn't make me a great programmer, but it does make me an enormously productive productive programmer. This gives me time to refactor, write extra code, surf SO, grab an hour lunch, etc.
Just a simple comment "Repetition is the mother of learning", it doesn't matter if you have a good/bad memory. The function you use more in your programs you will remember the best. Also, in my case, i have the internet, when i don't remenber something i just ask, even if it is a bumd or easy question, and a lot of times I remember the answer after I post the question and then I quickly post the answer. The problem is how much time you put your mind to work....
:)
I think it depends. Memory for a programmer is very very important. Both short and long term. However, what you use that memory for is the important thing. As a programmer, if you're using it to memorize ever nuance of an API then I'd say you're wasting your memory.
Ultimately, I try to use my memory to remember the important things and anything that I can't easily find at a later point in time. I'll usually put API stuff in short term memory and use google and intellisense to help me with the specifics. Design patterns, methodologies, lessons learned from experience, on the other hand are usually what I try to put into long term memory so I can use it effectively in the future without having to relearn everything.
In short, yes a programmer needs a good memory...both long and short term. But they need to be wise in how to use that memory...and that, I think, makes the difference in a great programmer.
Having a strong enough memory to hold the things you need to use today is the important part. If you are constantly searching for answers to the same question, you probably have a weak memory.
The most important thing is remembering where you can find the answers. I will sometimes blog on topics that are a bit more complex so I have a place to find them when I need them. But I don't try to hold onto them perpetually, because I can search my own blog and find them later. I do the same with other people's blogs and I know which blogs to hit for certain types of answers.
When all else fails, Google it!
I used to think having a good memory was a time saver because the more you remembered, the less time you spent looking things up, but tools and IDE have got so good now, many things that I used to memorize like syntax and various code snippets are quickly available in a few keystrokes. That, and the fact that the amount of information in the field grows way faster than any mortal programmer can keep up with, makes me think memory is less important any more. More important, is having good access and organization to useful information.