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I aim to try use DevExpress web server controls (which are awesome) in an ASP.NET MVC project (some articles I read on 'net seems to indicate the two can work well together).
I'm eager to start a new project using ASP.NET MVC, and I have been reading up a lot on ASP.NET MVC lately, but I'm not sure if I should invest a project in it. My concern is that it may turn out to be like LINQ to SQL, which is essentially been killed off since MS will not be providing updates.
Is ASP.NET MVC a viable solution to invest in my case?
Yes definitely ASP.NET MVC or any other MVC framework is worth learning. MVC pattern is all about seperation of concerns and helps you to keep your code clean.
If you like Devexpress control too much you could be disappointed because there is no server side control in ASP.NET MVC. But if you want to learn Web's underlying mechanism,HTML, Javascript , clean code, TDD ASP.NET MVC is a good way to go.
Learn first, experiment later
Asp.net MVC is a great development platform for building web applications, so it's definitely worth your time to learn it through and through.
But I suggest you first learn MVC framework and build at least one semi complex app with it and then start experimenting with mixing MVC with web forms controls. It is possible but as much you think you will gain you'll probably loose more. So I would be a bit reluctant and advise you not to match these. At least not on a Greenfield project.
In other words: presumably knowing Asp.net web forms would you suggest someone to heavy use dynamicly created user controls in their web pages if they're just about to learn the technology of Asp.net web forms? Probably not. Or mixing web forms with ASP pages on a greenfield project...
Instead try finding great either MVC-friendly server extensions or client-side libraries that will help you create rich web apps like ExtJS (I don't work for ExtJS llc, but I used the lib on a project in the past and liked it a lot). Using something like this you won't loose stuff from MVC and gain great user experience and rich functionality.
Seeing how you're asking the question on this site, I'd say YES!
DevExpress has a bunch of MVC specialized controls, that use Ajax to get data from the server via callbacks. You can see demos of the controls here:
http://mvc.devexpress.com.
I am not sure if you can use the web forms controls, my understanding is that you can't.
Also, regarding LinqToSql, you don't have to use that. I am using NHibernate for the data layer and it works very nice with MVC.
I worked with asp.net and web forms for more than 5 years and at least 1 year with the DevExpress controls for asp.net, but now I love MVC so much that I think I don't want to go back to the web forms anytime soon.
Hope this helped.
I'm a big fan of what ASP.NET MVC is doing, on many levels.
I'm about to take part in re-build of a very highly trafficked website, and I'm not which framework would be best (if any).
The site will need the following:
To support Javascript-heavy, highly interactive pages
But at the same time, provide underlying semantic HTML for search engines
Support multiple languages
Be skinnable
Expose a RESTful web-service API for partners
As far as I can tell, there's no reason not to use ASP.NET MVC for this.
I can present semantic HTML and layer Javascript on top using jQuery.
Multiple languages can be catered for using Resource files (same as at present).
Skinning can be done with CSS (it won't involve changes to the markup).
I can centralize business logic so that the Controllers and the WCF web-service use the same code.
But are there potential drawbacks to using MVC that I haven't considered?
I don't want to be the guy who picks a technology because it's cool but finds later down the track that it isn't very suitable for the job.
ASP.NET MVC is not good when all your doing is making a website that needs server-side code (but that's also true about ASP.NET also).
In your case I think MVC would be a great way to go. MVC has proven itself on high traffic websites (e.g. this one). However you must remember that MVC is new and changing. A library may not exists to do a specific task which means you'll have to write that code yourself.
Good luck on your rebuild!
You're good to go with MVC given what you've said about your project.
As far as I'm concerned, ASP.NET MVC is really only NOT good for situations where you have a large codebase in WebForms (meaning you have a lot of ASP.NET user controls, custom controls, etc). It's also not good if you are going to have people working on it who don't know what it's all about. Other than that, it's a pretty nice technology.
My two cents:
ASP.NET MVC is a great option but there is a little learning curve involved, so make sure your project plan/timeline has this handled. There might be developers on your team who might not be comfortable working with ASP.NET MVC, and this can cause possible delays (a lot of developers are still working in ASP.NET 1.1!).
#Alex: Lack of controls. Some features (like TreeView or Menu) are already implemented as Controls and it would be waste of time to reimplement them using mvc.
IMO the idea of using controls in ASP.NET MVC doesnt make much sense. You can create a treeview control using jQuery easily. Classic ASP.NET server controls carried a lot of baggage (viewstate etc) and hence ASP.NET MVC did not use any of those controls (though you can use helpers).
Finally, ASP.NET MVC is an alternative, not a replacement to Web Forms. I would not use ASP.NET MVC as it is still evolving, and my team is not very comfortable with it, but I guess slowly more and more programmers would shift to this (better) option.
I do not like ASP.NET MVC because of following reasons:
1.
Ugly routing API, there http://ayende.com/Blog/archive/2008/11/05/a-case-study-of-bad-api-design-asp.net-mvc-routing.aspx
is description of what is wrong.
By the way, friendly urls can be easily implemented without mvc
http://demo.liveui.net/bugtracker/Tasks/7
2.
Poor object model. It is proved that good software should consist of reusable components. There is nothing that can be reused in ASP.NET MVC based web site. For example, if you implemented smart drop down list once it will be difficult to use it again (even on the same web site).
3.
Lack of controls. Some features (like TreeView or Menu) are already implemented as Controls and it would be waste of time to reimplement them using mvc.
If I were you I would try to find some CMS and customize it for WebSite needs.
To responses:
YES. I know about ASP.NET controls disadvantages, but the question is about ASP.NET MVC. One can write a book about what is good and what is bad in ASP.NET but I do not think it is appropriate to discuss it here.
There are better ways of implementing MVC without using asp.net MVC. I have done it in the past, even before asp.net MVC came live. MVC is a pattern, not a technology, I do not understand why some people call it a Technology. You can separate all concerns by removing the code-behind from webforms and create your own controllers and routers and you will still have the advantage of the webform controls, etc to which most asp.net developers are used to use. asp.net mvc is nice for people whom do not really have the time to properly create an MVC app in a webforms environment and also to those whom do not have the time to architect a better solution. in conlcusion, asp.net mvc is good but there is a much better way of doing it and finally, MVC is NOT a technology.
Telerik claims their controls work with ASP.NET MVC now. Has anyone already used the controls in a MVC project?
My company uses the Telerik ASP.NET controls in a large application and it works out quite well. That's why we think about using them in a MVC project.
EDIT 1:
telerik has a new go at ASP.NET MVC this looks much better then their first go at it. But it was to late for my project. http://www.telerik.com/products/aspnet-mvc.aspx
You could check out the demo application (a forums application) they built using ASP.NET MVC, announced here. Source code is available.
The demo is a simple- and stylish -
forums application. It uses 9 of the
RadControls, including RadGrid,
RadEditor, RadChart, RadTreeView and
RadUpload, to build a forum site that
has basic thread/post navigation,
formatted forum posting, user
authentication (with support for
custom avatars), and a site activity
"Statistics" view. Everything you need
to have a fully functional MVC forums
app. The source is available for
immediate download, so I encourage
anyone interested in learning more
about MVC or the RadControls in MVC to
grab the bites and study the example.
You may have already seen it, but Telerik has a blog post about how to use their controls with MVC and some of the limitations. I don't actually use their controls so I can't speak to whether the limitations are really a problem. It does appear that there is a a little more "manual lifting", so to speak, when using the controls with MVC but that there are workarounds to get most of them to work properly.
I'm hoping that they will eventually release MVC versions of their controls. I'm holding off evaluating them until that happens, but if you're already using them I'd certainly look to see how easy they would be to use with MVC. Perhaps you could update your question with an answer if you give it a try and let the rest of us know how it went.
I have been using the Telerik controls for about 6 months. I have been using the Grid and Window controls on MVC 2. Like most commercial products there are issues we have been fortunate to work them out. Once you get past the initial learning curve the controls are time savers. You can't beat the price for the amount of functionality you get.
My biggest issue is that they seem a bit sluggish responding on their forums. Maybe I'm just asking lame questions. I've been lobbying management to pay the $ for the supported version. Considering the amount of time we spend digging around to solve some of the more complicated problems I think it would be worth it.
I've just had a look at their grid and wrote a small POC project with it and must say I'm quite impressed. I'm not sure about their previous MVC controls iterations, but the current one can be a real time saver. It also fits very nicely into ASP.NET MVC ajax applications since there is a rich client-side API. Having jquery DataTables on the client side results in an even better user experience (because it is much faster), but also requires more error-prone javascript code.
As an alternative, you can check for MDBootstrap (it´s a front-end framework built on top of Bootstrap). There you will find an article with free ASP.NET MVC templates.
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I am trying to teach ASP.NET MVC to students (undergrads) that have been studying ASP.NET for the last 8 weeks (I know that doesn't sound like much time, but the class is 4 hours per day, 5 days per week with Labs, Quizzes, Exams, and Wrestles).
I haven't gotten the question yet...but I know it is coming...
When would I use MVC instead of ASP??
I don't have any real experience with ASP MVC and I can't find any sort of clear-cut answer on the web. Arguments such as "...the web is stateless and ASP MVC is a closer match etc etc" do not mean much to them. They are starting to notice that ASP has lots of controls that seem to simplify their markup compared to MVC.
I'm trying to give an honest spin, and any feedback would be much appreciated!
TIA
Statelessness is a good one word to explain as already highlighted by the members.
Apart from this ask the following questions to the students?
If they have to do the following with ASP.NET (no MVC), how easy will it be?
Test your views
Mock Http objects.
Viewstate reduction (by design)(
Substitute lightweight viewengine for .aspx.
Thorough separation of concerns.
Clean HTML
etc. etc..
Now explain asp.net mvc in the above context. There may be more to it.
Atleast I think they will get the point, thought this may not be applicable to all project, but what's the harm if we are only gaining from this.
To me, the MVC approach is a very different paradigm from the ASP Forms API. I think the idea of being "stateless" is a good way to explain a very broad topic in one word actually.
One of the major advantages that I've seen is that the MVC framework gives a lot of control over the design and the output of your page. For small projects, this may not be the best use of it, but for large projects, it scales very well because you can make different architectural choices that (personally) I find to be better, such as the way that the MVC framework separates logic from the view.
Also, if you're designing a site that has a lot of Javascript, the control you gain over output in the MVC framework can be very helpful because you don't have to worry so much about how IDs and other markup may be rendered, like you typically do in the ASP Forms framework.
The MVC framework is really a totally different way to design web sites. Personally, I think it is more beneficial for large projects, but I also started out in web languages where MVC was a more popular design choice to begin with.
That's just my 2 cents.
I always thought the ASP.NET MVC Framework was a bad name since its a Design Pattern.
The question should be :
When would I use ASP.NET MVC Framework over ASP.NET Web forms?
The Developer Experience
a) ASP.NET Web Forms tries to abstract away the stateless nature of HTTP from the developer. The state of GUI Elements, and or data is stored in the Viewstate/Session. Everyone Form does a postback to itself, basically mimicking the behavior of a WinForm event driven design.
b) HTML GUI Elements are further abstracted by Controls which can be re-used, bought from 3rd party vendors. This helps developers glue an HTML app together without to much JavaScript and HTML/HTTP Knowledge. Basically similar to the way you would develop VB / WinForms
c) You can do a good job implementing the MVC/MVP pattern in ASP.NET webforms. Look at the Patterns and Practices Web Client software factory to see how they did it.
d) Developing using WebForms you are generally changing the HTML (View) based on user feedback at the server. Most events (user clicks a button, edits a field) are handled at the server in a continuous postback loop executing whats called the ASP.NET Page Lifecycle.
VS
Browser controlled view (dont know what else to call it). All changes to the HTML based on user input is handled in the browser. You will be manipulating the DOM with Javascript.
Note: I basing this on the fact that ASP.NET MVC is most likely driven by basic HTML + Ajax
How I would personally choose between them (never having used MVC, just reading on it)
1) If I was to build a pure stateless front end using Ajax, Jquery, EXT JS type libraries ASP.NET MVC would seem the better fit. Although you could build this in ASP.NET Webforms it seems pointless since you not taking advantage of the Postback model and Server Controls.
2) If I were asked to build a new basic web application, I would stick with ASP.NET Webforms since i'm already familiar with it and know the whole page lifecylce.
3) If I were asked to build a Web 2.0 (hate that term) to have a next gen User Experience, I would probably go with ASP.NET MVC, and use JQuery / ASP.NET Ajax client controls.
4) Many companies have built up a solid set of WebForm controls to use. It would be costly to rebuild them all in a pure stateless ajaxy way :)
For someone with experience (and pains) in Winforms - the biggest difference is no more Viewstate. The state of controls on the form is kept on the client, in the browser and sent to the server for each request.
If you use Javascript, it is easier to make changes on the browser side, while the server side gets an easy way to look at the form as a whole without having to recreate controls binding.
Beyond all the nice things MVC provides - separation of view/code, testability - this was for me the key point to move to MVC.
Apart from all the other excellent responses already listed. Webforms is an abstraction away from HTML.
When you want a html table of data, you put a "gridview" control on a page - what you end up with is "gridview" html, and quite possibly not exactly what you were after.
The shoe fits 90% of the time, but a lot of the time, especially when things move beyond a basic site that the controls don't fit. Using Webforms often means that you don't have full control over the final output that is rendered to the browser.
You can of course extend, or write your own grid control. But wouldn't you just prefer to write the html you want instead?
It's my experience that has the projects get more complex, and UI's get more complicated that you end up fighting webforms more and more often.
http://www.emadibrahim.com/2008/09/07/deciding-between-aspnet-mvc-and-webforms/
I just listened to the StackOverflow team's 17th podcast, and they talked so highly of ASP.NET MVC that I decided to check it out.
But first, I want to be sure it's worth it. I already created a base web application (for other developers to build on) for a project that's starting in a few days and wanted to know, based on your experience, if I should take the time to learn the basics of MVC and re-create the base web application with this model.
Are there really big pros that'd make it worthwhile?
EDIT: It's not an existing project, it's a project about to start, so if I'm going to do it it should be now...
I just found this
It does not, however, use the existing post-back model for interactions back to the server. Instead, you'll route all end-user interactions to a Controller class instead - which helps ensure clean separation of concerns and testability (it also means no viewstate or page lifecycle with MVC based views).
How would that work? No viewstate? No events?
If you are quite happy with WebForms today, then maybe ASP.NET MVC isn't for you.
I have been frustrated with WebForms for a really long time. I'm definitely not alone here. The smart-client, stateful abstraction over the web breaks down severely in complex scenarios. I happen to love HTML, Javascript, and CSS. WebForms tries to hide that from me. It also has some really complex solutions to problems that are really not that complex. Webforms is also inherently difficult to test, and while you can use MVP, it's not a great solution for a web environment...(compared to MVC).
MVC will appeal to you if...
- you want more control over your HTML
- want a seamless ajax experience like every other platform has
- want testability through-and-through
- want meaningful URLs
- HATE dealing with postback & viewstate issues
And as for the framework being Preview 5, it is quite stable, the design is mostly there, and upgrading is not difficult. I started an app on Preview 1 and have upgraded within a few hours of the newest preview being available.
It's important to keep in mind that MVC and WebForms are not competing, and one is not better than the other. They are simply different tools. Most people seem to approach MVC vs WebForms as "one must be a better hammer than the other". That is wrong. One is a hammer, the other is a screwdriver. Both are used in the process of putting things together, but have different strengths and weaknesses.
If one left you with a bad taste, you were probably trying to use a screwdriver to pound a nail. Certain problems are cumbersome with WebForms that become elegant and simple with MVC, and vice-versa.
I have used ASP.NET MVC (I even wrote a HTTPModule that lets you define the routes in web.config), and I still get a bitter taste in my mouth about it.
It seems like a giant step backwards in organization and productivity. Maybe its not for some, but I've got webforms figured out, and they present no challenge to me as far as making them maintainable.
That, and I don't endorse the current "TEST EVERYTHING" fad...
ASP.NET MVC basically allows you to separate the responsibility of different sections of the code. This enable you to test your application. You can test your Views, Routes etc. It also does speed up the application since now there is no ViewState or Postback.
BUT, there are also disadvantages. Since, you are no using WebForms you cannot use any ASP.NET control. It means if you want to create a GridView you will be running a for loop and create the table manually. If you want to use the ASP.NET Wizard in MVC then you will have to create on your own.
It is a nice framework if you are sick and tired of ASP.NET webform and want to perform everything on your own. But you need to keep in mind that would you benefit from creating all the stuff again or not?
In general I prefer Webforms framework due to the rich suite of controls and the automatic plumbing.
I would create a test site first, and see what the team thinks, but for me I wouldn't go back to WebForms after using MVC.
Some people don't like code mixed with HTML, and I can understand that, but I far prefer the flexibility over things like Page Lifecycle, rendering HTML and biggy for me - no viewstate cruft embedded in the page source.
Some people prefer MVC for better testibility, but personally most of my code is in the middle layer and easily tested anyway...
#Juan Manuel Did you ever work in classic ASP? When you had to program all of your own events and "viewstatish" items (like a dropdown recalling its selected value after form submission)?
If so, then ASP.NET MVC will not feel that awkward off the bat. I would check out Rob Conery's Awesome Series "MVC Storefront" where he has been walking through the framework and building each expected component for a storefront site. It's really impressive and easy to follow along (catching up is tough because Rob has been reall active and posted A LOT in that series).
Personally, and quite contrary to Jeff Atwood's feelings on the topic, I rather liked the webform model. It was totally different than the vbscript/classic ASP days for sure but keeping viewstate in check and writing your own CSS friendly controls was enjoyable, actually.
Then again, note that I said "liked". ASP.NET MVC is really awesome and more alike other web technologies out there. It certainly is easier to shift from ASP.NET MVC to RAILS if you like to or need to work on multiple platforms. And while, yes, it is very stable obviously (this very site), if your company disallows "beta" software of any color; implementing it into production at the this time might be an issue.
#Jonathan Holland I saw that you were voted down, but that is a VERY VALID point. I have been reading some posts around the intertubes where people seem to be confusing ASP.NET MVC the framework and MVC the pattern.
MVC in of itself is a DESIGN PATTERN. If all you are looking for is a "separation of concerns" then you can certainly achieve that with webforms. Personally, I am a big fan of the MVP pattern in a standard n-tier environment.
If you really want TOTAL control of your mark-up in the ASP.NET world, then MVC the ramework is for you.
If you are a professional ASP.NET developer, and have some time to spare on learning new stuff, I would certainly recommend that you spend some time trying out ASP.NET MVC. It may not be the solution to all your problems, and there are lots of projects that may benefit more from a traditional webform implementation, but while trying to figure out MVC you will certainly learn a lot, and it might bring up lots of ideas that you can apply on your job.
One good thing that I noticed while going through many blog posts and video tutorials while trying to develop a MVC pet-project is that most of them follow the current best practices (TDD, IoC, Dependency Injection, and to a lower extent POCO), plus a lot of JQuery to make the experience more interesting for the user, and that is stuff that I can apply on my current webform apps, and that I wasn't exposed in such depth before.
The ASP.NET MVC way of doing things is so different from webforms that it will shake up a bit your mind, and that for a developer is very good!
OTOH for a total beginner to web development I think MVC is definitely a better start because it offers a good design pattern out of the box and is closer to the way that the web really works (HTML is stateless, after all). On MVC you decide on every byte that goes back and forth on the wire (at least while you don't go crazy on html helpers). Once the guy gets that, he or she will be better equipped to move to the "artificial" facilities provided by ASP.NET webforms and server controls.
If you like to use server controls which do a lot of work for you, you will NOT like MVC because you will need to do a lot of hand coding in MVC. If you like the GridView, expect to write one yourself or use someone else's.
MVC is not for everyone, specially if you're not into unit testing the GUI part. If you're comfortable with web forms, stay with it. Web Forms 4.0 will fix some of the current shortcomings like the ID's which are automatically assigned by ASP.NET. You will have control of these in the next version.
Unless the developers you are working with are familiar with MVC pattern I wouldn't. At a minimum I'd talk with them first before making such a big change.
I'm trying to make that same decision about ASP.NET MVC, Juan Manuel. I'm now waiting for the right bite-sized project to come along with which I can experiment. If the experiment goes well--my gut says it will--then I'm going to architect my new large projects around the framework.
With ASP.NET MVC you lose the viewstate/postback model of ASP.NET Web Forms. Without that abstraction, you work much more closely with the HTML and the HTTP POST and GET commands. I believe the UI programming is somewhat in the direction of classic ASP.
With that inconvenience, comes a greater degree of control. I've very often found myself fighting the psuedo-session garbage of ASP.NET and the prospect of regaining complete control of the output HTML seems very refreshing.
It's perhaps either the best--or the worst--of both worlds.
5 Reasons You Should Take a Closer Look at ASP.NET MVC
I dont´t know ASP.NET MVC, but I am very familiar with MVC pattern. I don´t see another way to build professional applications without MVC. And it has to be MVC model 2, like Spring or Struts. By the way, how you people were building web applications without MVC? When you have a situation that some kind of validation is necessary on every request, as validating if user is authenticated, what is your solution? Some kind of include(validate.aspx) in every page?
Have you never heard of N-Tier development?
Ajax, RAD (webforms with ajax are anti-RAD very often), COMPLETE CONTROL (without developing whole bunch of code and cycles). webforms are good only to bind some grid and such and not for anything else, and one more really important thing - performance. when u get stuck into the web forms hell u will switch on MVC sooner or later.
I wouldn't recommend just making the switch on an existing project. Perhaps start a small "demo" project that the team can use to experiment with the technology and (if necessary) learn what they need to and demonstrate to management that it is worthwhile to make the switch. In the end, even the dev team might realize they aren't ready or it's not worth it.
Whatever you do, be sure to document it. Perhaps if you use a demo project, write a postmortem for future reference.
I dont´t know ASP.NET MVC, but I am very familiar with MVC pattern. I don´t see another way to build professional applications without MVC. And it has to be MVC model 2, like Spring or Struts. By the way, how you people were building web applications without MVC? When you have a situation that some kind of validation is necessary on every request, as validating if user is authenticated, what is your solution? Some kind of include(validate.aspx) in every page?
No, you shouldn't. Feel free to try it out on a new project, but a lot of people familiar with ASP.NET webforms aren't loving it yet, due to having to muck around with raw HTML + lots of different concepts + pretty slim pickings on documentation/tutorials.
Is the fact that ASP.net MVC is only in 'Preview 5' be a cause for concern when looking into it?
I know that StackOverflow was created using it, but is there a chance that Microsoft could implement significant changes to the framework before it is officially out of beta/alpha/preview release?
If you are dead set on using an MVC framework, then I would rather set out to use Castle project's one...
When that's said I personally think WebControls have a lot of advantages, like for instance being able to create event driven applications which have a stateful client and so on. Most of the arguments against WebControls are constructed because of lack of understanding the WebControl model etc. And not because they actually are truly bad...
MVC is not a Silver Bullet, especially not Microsoft MVC...
I have seen some implementation of MVC framework where for the sake of testability, someone rendered the whole HTML in code. In this case the view is also a testable code. But I said, my friend, putting HTML in code is a maintenance nightmare and he said well I like everything compiled and tested. I didn't argue, but later found that he did put this HTML into resource files and the craziness continued...
Little did he realized that the whole idea of separating View also solved the maintenance part. It outweighs the testability in some applications. We do not need to test the HTML design if we are using WYSWYG tool. WebForms are good for that reason.
I have often seen people abusing postback and viewstate and blaming it on the ASP .NET model.
Remember the best webpages are still the .HTMLs and that's where is the Power of ASP .NET MVC.