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thanks for opening my question :)
I am a university student in Computer Engineering, and I've always done class projects in Java (apart from C, and Assembly, but for very specific things). Apart from that, I have worked for quite a lot of time on a web app done in ActionScript 3, contained in .jsp files and deployed onto a Google App Engine site.
Having that said, I now pretend to do a prototype of another web app, which will have registered users with blogs and a messaging system between them.
My question is, having time as a restraint (I have month and a half), and needing just to build a working prototype, could anyone tell me, in his/her opinion, what would be the best framework for me to start learning and use? (Take into account my Java & ActionScript background) I believe RoR is the most common in these cases, as its easy and quick, but I have no Ruby knowledge at all, and maybe it would be quicker for me to learn Scala (which coming fromJava shouldn't be that different) and Lift, and do it with them instead.
Many thanks in advance!
Pepillo
Last year I found myself in a very similar situation for creating a web based relationship browser for a computing science class. I would highly recommend RoR. Granted you will need to spend some time getting up to speed with Ruby, but it is well worth the small amount of time to learn. There is excellent documentation available and a ton of good tutorials.
Rails can generate much of the core code and database schema with the generator functions in seconds (see scaffolding generators). Considering your time constraint, I think this alone makes rails a good choice.
In terms of learning Ruby, you should not have much trouble with this if you are comfortable with any dynamically typed scripting languages.
Anyway, that has been my experience with rails. Good luck on your project!
I think I'm going with Play! Not only is the easiest for me, as I am a Java guy, but it's also the quickest when in conjuntion with Japid, according to a benchmark I saw.
I used Java for about 7 years now, mostly for web applications, and recently started using RoR. I must say it was really easy to pick up and get started. After only 2 months of working on my own project I started using it for a customer projects and it was far more easier to deliver production code then I had anticipated. So yes I can recommend Ruby and it was not hard at all to pick up.
However, RoR does require a nix platform like apple os or linux. I stated out with windows but there are simply too many drawbacks and bugs.
If you decide to go with ruby I can higly recommend Agile Web Development with Rails (Pragmatic Programmers) to get you started.
I have some community running Drupal 6. Drupal 6 have great numbers of modules for what I need, plus word "Community plumbing".
I've tried PHP frameworks like Yii, but I dont like PHP-CLI, because I feel that not well integrated with the PHP itself. So, I stay with Drupal 6 with lots of hacks.
But Drupal now become more "CMS", more "Enterprise" (just like lots of Java CMS).
With Drupal 7, out of the box, it easier to make a newspaper site, but to me, it more difficult to tailored to my needs, it more magic, and also slower.
The word "Community plumbing" has been replaced with "Open Source CMS", with statement "Use Drupal to build everything from personal blogs to enterprise applications". This is scares me as community-based application developer.
Django looks promising, but Rails have much more open source kick-ass app avaiable.
I dont know anything about Drupal 8. I dont know what to do for my next development.
It sounds like you are looking to move from a CMS to a framework. I am not going to give advise on frameworks here, since there are numerous topics on SO that cover this already.
A few things you should realize, coming from Drupal, moving to a (RAD)framework are the following:
Drupal is not OO, has its own ways of using PHP (hooks, template overrides) and such. Expect the experience to be very different. Your Drupal-gained-knowledge may come in handy, but is often of little use in framework-land where OO is the alpha and omega. :)
Drupal takes a lot from your hands. By installing some module, you have a new feature. With frameworks you are all on your own in this. You should select a framework that works with gems, packages or modules itself if you want to stand on shoulders of others peoples work. The main difference between these libraries and Drupal modules, is that you will have to implement and integrate the libs yourself. I consider that a very good thing, since it makes no assumptions up front and allows you to build exactly what you had in mind, yet having the same experience as Drupal-modules: many things are already done for you.
You know PHP. You probably don't know Python or Ruby as well. That means PHP-based frameworks have an advantage for you. But read various posts on SO about the downsides of PHP used in Frameworks to see some reasons why learning a new language and environemnt is not all that bad.
All in all, I think you will be surprised byt the increase in development-efficiency when coming from Drupal into a framework.
Make your own CMS in 'just PHP' and go back to being happy and having fun coding all day long :)
More people than you have noticed this behavior of leaving developers that have supported a system for years and years with a take it or leave it option.
It seems all the big companies can do with a product is make it 'bigger'. More convoluted, automated, with more layers of code and less modularity - all in the aim to make 'the ultimate megaglobular ultrauniversecorporate site'. Almost as if small clients with 'just a website' don't exist. Enterprise products belong in the enterprise domain. When you upgrade a non-'do the mightiest world-spanning web site/application' system, you shouldn't get a 'do the mightiest world-spanning web site/application'system.
The bigger system may be able to do more things and be more scalable to large systems, but they leave behind no small, accurate tool to do small and medium jobs quickly and with ease. Also: "Documentation is not scalable" (c) H. Erlandsson. To even find the doItAll() function or even know it exists, you have to wade through increasingly huge documentation. To then learn how to use it correctly, if you don't know all the component the function builds on, you have learn the behavior of many subsystems to understand how to apply some terse declaration to your problem.
The ultimate something can be several refined gems, and not an asteroid-size cluster of crystals.
Was a bit tricky to read out exactly what you're asking, hope I read you right. I can recommend some programming system gems, but they are not in the web dev domain, maybe others will know a few :)
I want to make a community based site, which is Drupal's strength. However I also want to try other frameworks, especially Rails.
One of the best things about drupal is its huge modules library. If I were to switch to Rails, would I be able to find similar functionality freely available as plugins, or would I have to rebuild?
Does Rails have the equivalent of (as plugins or gems):
CCK/Fields?
Node Reference?
Views / Views Relationships?
PathAuto?
Threaded Commenting?
Multisite Functionality?
Apache Solr (or equivalent) Integration?
Thanks.
I'm afraid you'll probably hear this answer a lot, but it's not a suitable comparison.
Drupal is a ultimately a CMS, Rails is a framework. Apples to oranges, or perhaps even Apple Juice to oranges. Out of the box, you fire up Drupal and it does 'things': it has a database structure, the concept of nodes, interfaces blah, blah. If you fire up Rails you have an empty project.
As far as I know there isn't a "Drupal-on-Rails" project that would be a suitable equivalent. However, I can attest to the fact that there is an awful lot of Ruby/Rails community and O/S work out there and you might find something suitable. I'd also say that the level of modularity in Ruby and Rails tends to mean that the range of plugins/modules/gems one can use is much greater.
My personal $0.02. If Drupal does what you need, just use Drupal: it's mature and has a great community. It's never a good idea to try to port Project X over to a new language as a learning exercise because you'll inevitable fall into the "Well that's how it's done in language X!" trap and become disenchanted with the new system.
If you're wanting to learn Rails (which you should, it's awesome) I'd suggest you'd be best working on a small project and seeing what the ecosystem offers before deciding if it's suitable for the needs of your bigger projects.
I have to second what Govan said, but add to it.
With Drupal, unless you really want to get into building your own modules and extensions you are really interacting with an application. Even when you start using CCK, all you are really doing is flipping switches, filling in forms and defining new options for content on the site.
Ruby on Rails is two things, and neither of them bares much similarity to Drupal. You asked "How hard is it really?". To answer that you need to understand what both Ruby and Rails are. Ruby is a programming language designed to make the life of the object purist programmer simpler and more pleasant. So, the first part of how hard is it is simply to answer "how long do you feel it would take you to learn a completely new programming language, like PHP but different".
Rails is an 'opinionated' framework. It's opinionated in that it lays out how a Ruby web project should be structured, as well as providing multiple APIs for everything from database access to web presentation. To answer the "how hard is it" question for Rails then (assuming you know Ruby by this point), you have to answer how much do you need to learn about cacheing, database design, page design, RESTful programming etc etc.
It's not a short journey. you asked if there is an equivalent to CCK for Ruby and Rails which implies to me that at this point your knowledge of programming is somewhat limited. Ruby and Rails interact with the database. CCK lets you define things in a database. Thus, with Ruby and Rails you are effectively bypassing the wonderful dialogs and forms that CCK provides you with and doing the data definition bits yourself, by hand, in code.
From experience, when I've hired experts in another programming language and framework into my Rails teams, it has taken them between 1 and 3 months to get productive, and a further 3 to 6 months for their productivity to start to raise and approach that of the Rails experts on my team.
Thus, in your particular case, I would not recommend a switch away from Drupal to Ruby on Rails.
Drupal (core) on ohloh (130k lines of code) is estimated to be 34 years of work worth.
Drupal (contributions) on ohloh (modules for Drupal 4-6 (7M lines of code)) is estimated to be 2113 years of work.
That is the power of a community, and that is something that you can never replicate. I remeber there was a guy, who tried to port Drupal to python calling it drupy, but that project died before something useful ever came out of it. Even if you copy the code, you can never copy the community.
The thing you need to realize, is that each community is different. So even if you find a project that can solve your code needs in a RoR or a different language/framework, it will never be like Drupal and vice versa.
So don't try to find a replacement for Drupal, but go explore and try new things. You might end up learning new things, that you can use for your Drupal projects.
I've read this times and times again that people saying comparing drupal an ror is comparing apple to orange which is wrong.
I think the saying itself BS. Yes we want to compare apple to orange and find out which is better. We even want to compare apple to steak. Said that, they are different. Yes, we all know. I have limited experience with either. I first thought Drupal was great and can help me build the website I wanted overnight (or over a week or month) then it didn't happen (not blaming Drupal).
My impression is that, Drupal maybe still great but it has a learning curve and needs a lot of other knowledge or talents to use it well and tweak it. RoR on the other hand is a more general framework and needs programming (Drupal needs too actually).
If you are more of a web designer person with a little PHP maybe Drupal is better fit.
If you are more of a web developer type don't want to spend time looking for modules and make them work but rather do them yourself (not really from ground up) then maybe RoR is for you (with the same amount of learning). So yes they are both good for different purpose, background, etc.
For now I will go with RoR (or dJango and other ORANGEs). My 2 cents.
Rails, since version 3.0, has officially adopted the once-controversial engine way of incorporating third-party apps. this is roughly the equivalent of Drupal's modules/plug-ins, from a 10k foot perspective. To build a community-based site, you could make use of an engine called, appropriately enough, "Community Engine." http://communityengine.org/features.html"
The Rails ecosystem doesn't have anywhere near the same number of modules Drupalists have available to them, but there are enough good quality ones to cover the chief basics.
Drupal has so many strong areas, its hard for just one or two people to recreate it in a decent amount of time with any language. PHP, Ruby, Python, etc.
You have the core node system, taxonomy, aliasing, menus, users, permissions, and modules, the database api, and form api, among others.
You'd have to know how to assemble all these pieces independently and create the structure necessary for it to all work together.
It would take more than 'a few hours'. I would say, even if you are a ROR master, you're looking at a year to two years of solid consistent work to get the best parts of Drupal for a new system.
I want to learn a framework that promotes good programming practices and is respected by the programming community.
However, I also want a framework that I can use for a day job.
Which one would you recommend?
This question comes from my experience of learning the basics of Django because it was highly acclaimed by developers on Stack Overflow and Hacker News. However.. there's hardly any jobs in my area (NYC) that are asking for Django developers.
As a long-time ASP.NET guy, I've recently gone through a similar decision process to figure out what other web frameworks I should try. Here's what I learned so far which may apply to your case too:
framework/platofrm choices (and hence job opportunities) are highly regional-- the Bay Area job market differs alot from what you'll find in NYC, Chicago, Montreal, or London. Look at local job listings (craigslist and indeed are good places to start) to get a good sense at what's in demand.
similarly, usage varies alot based on the size and type of company. if you want to get a job in a large company, Spring MVC and ASP.NET MVC may be your best bets. In small companies, DJango and (especially) Rails seem to be on the rise.
usage also sometimes varies by industry. for example, many HR apps seem be to .NET based, while financial/banking apps seem to favor Java. if you want to work in a particular industry, check out what up-and-coming companies in that industry are using.
when investing your scarce time in learning something new, favor technologies which are on the upswing of the adoption curve (e.g. Rails) rather than frameworks with wider adoption which may not be growing as fast. Also be wary of very early or niche frameworks which may not ever gain wide adoption.
the one common thread between most (or almost all) frameworks gaining in popularity is that they're MVC frameworks and rely heavily on a solid understanding of REST. Learning those concepts in depth is a good idea.
before deciding to invest a lot of time in one framework, gain a basic understanding of several of them, so you can get a reasonable sense of what you like and don't about each-- and so if you end up applying for a job using a framework you haven't learned, at least you'll be able to talk intelligently about it.
If you focus on what you enjoy, you'll be more motivated to learn it. For example, personally I found Rails (regarless of employment opportunities) more interesting than Spring or Django, so I decided to focus on Rails first. Others may have different impressions-- follow your programmer instincts. That said, there are often few jobs using technologies you find fascinating, so try to strike the right balance: technology you like that many companies are actually hiring people to use!
once you answer the basic "what framework" question, there are many more questions lurking, including picking a javascript framework, validation framework, an ORM, etc. Don't worry too much about those choices yet-- when starting, just pick the default implementation for your framework. But as you get more advanced, the same argument about frameworks also hold for those other things-- e.g. it's useful to know a few ORMs.
Personally, I decided on this approach:
continue building stuff in what I knew best (ASP.NET) but transition all work to ASP.NET MVC, where I can better understand MVC and REST concepts which apply cross-platform
learn JQuery (again, platform neutral)
blow off the ORM choice alltogether for now-- too many other things to worry about
build a few projects in Rails, which is the framework I see used most in the newer SF-Bay-Area startups I've been looking at
learn the basics (e.g. read a book or two, try a few samples) about Python/Django, Java/Spring, and Groovy/Grails.
I've encountered real projects at cool, small companies using Django, Ruby on Rails and (eiuw!) even Zope. .NET is for teletubbies - I've only ever heard of it being used by big corporations that don't know better.
I would say that knowing two or three is better than knowing one that is widely used because you will gain a better understanding of how it works as a concept. For instance if you've only used Java, there is something probably missing in your understanding of OOP, because you're pigeon-holed into thinking about it in one way. If you already know Django though you Spring would probably be a good compliment to that.
i'd probably say ASP.NET MVC. I always see lots of .NET jobs around and this seems to be a solid framework which i think in fact powers all the stackoverflow family. As a PHP developer i must also make a mention of Zend Framework which is used by a number of big sites including bbc.co.uk and is now frequently mentioned in advertisements for PHP jobs.
I want to learn a framework that promotes good programming practices and is respected by the programming community. However, I also want a framework that I can use for a day job.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news here, but those two desires tend to conflict. IMHO most business managers tend to go for (ugly) rapid development on top of CRMs or other higher-level 3rd party codebases. Building elegant websites from the ground up mostly happens in startups, or true web companies where the website is the sole product. There are not that many of those companies; and many of those that seem to fit are actually a mess on the inside, i.e. due to time pressure, messy legacy code and many other reasons you often don't get to write according to "good programming practices" anyway.
I agree with Kaleb Brasee that Java and .NET are the two main platforms when job availability is a priority.
Every job market is unique, so look at job openings in your area, or call a handful of recruiters and ask what they see a need for / could easily place you in a junior position for. What I'm seeing is that Microsoft Sharepoint is in demand, and a few other regional CMS'es are in demand (in Denmark I see Sitecore regularly).
I think ASP.NET MVC 2.0 together with MVC Areas and ASP.NET Dynamic Data will have a good story, a good solution, for many of those bosses who want rapid development. And I think the resulting code could be quite okay, or at least not bad compared to many of the "CMS beaten into something else" sites that exist. But this is a brand new thing for the .NET platform, and it will need to be sold to the decision makers first...
Bottom line: If you want job security first and foremost, then look at large CMS's like Sharepoint, and work on other technologies in your spare time. Optionally you could take a job at a startup / a web company later; but look before you leap.
Have you tried Spring MVC? Many companies do use Java for web-apps (or .NET) and web service based applications.
Since you mentioned Ruby on Rails, you might want to learn Ruby on Rails. It has got some good programming practices in it and a very well thought architecture. The Ruby community itself have also (in my personal opinion) created very innovative frameworks and highly favor testing and quality. You can see this by the innovative testing framework like Cucumber, webrat, shoulda, coulda, rspec, test/spec. Many startups also uses Rails as their platform, so it should be easier for you to get a job. You can start looking at Working With Rails and 37signals job board. So there is a good ecosystem inside Rails and Ruby community.
But the downside of Rails compare to Django is mainly there are too much magic (less explicit) and the docs is not as good as Django. If you want to get a Django job, try looking at several news site because Django grew up from a newspaper site so it is adopted alot in news based sites.
I would recommend ASP.NET MVC, Ruby on Rails, or Python/Django, they all seem to be popular and successful, and based on the MVC paradigm which is definitely the right tool for the job when it comes to the web.
.NET and Java are by far the 2 largest platforms used by employers, and hence the most in-demand when searching for a job. Java has a few popular frameworks, with JSF, Spring MVC and Struts all seeming to be about equal in demand. I don't use .NET, but from what I've seen, ASP.NET and ASP.NET MVC are the major ones.
I would say that most of the frameworks mentioned here promotes good practices. But that doesn't neccesarily mean that the companies using those frameworks are actually following those good practices! In fact most probably aren't. So don't expect too much.
You see, places like Stack Overflow, Hacker News etc. are a great way to connect with people who really care about their craft. Sadly this is a minority. There are millions of programmers in the world. Most of them suck. The code they write sucks. They don't care. They are not interested in improving their skills. They just want to learn the bare minimum required to collect their paycheck, go home, feed the dog, spend some time with the family, watch some TV, go too bed and do it all over again the next day.
Okay that was a bit harsh :) What I'm getting at is that you are probably better off asking this question to some of the managers at the companies where you would like to work. My guess is that most of them will answer .NET or Java. If you are up for a laugh ask them why they chose that particular technology over something else, and see how many buzzwords they throw at you ;)
What language, framework, and hosting considerations should one make before starting development of a scalable web application?
The most important consideration is not to over-engineer to the point that it gets in the way of building and launching something. Analysis paralysis is the single biggest inhibitor to productivity, progress and results.
Yes, do some planning. Pick a framework. Perfection in a framework will be impossible to find because it doesn't exist, partially because you don't know what you need until you build it anyways. Chances are, if you pick something, it will be better than picking nothing.
Yes, try to pick flexible, inter-operable tools for where you see yourself going.
Yes, look for a good built-in feature set where you see yourself going in the next 6-18 Months. Trying to look beyond that is not really realistic anyways as most projects change so much anyways going towards the first release.
So, pick what you're comfortable with or what is familiar. Don't follow the crowd, do what gets you the best results, quickest, and often. Understand that you might have to change in the future. So, whatever you build now, try to use unit testing so you can re-factor if ever needed.
If what you're building is going to be super successful, it will be a great problem to have, and an easy one to work on once it's making money as you'll be able to get other talent to help you.
Share what you end up picking and why for your situation -- it helps the us learn from you too!
Don't necessarily marry yourself to one language or framework. It may be that some parts of your site work better with different languages and frameworks than others. For example, all of 37signals' sites are based on Ruby on Rails, but they recently wrote a blog post about how the underlying technology of one is actually written in Erlang now because it's much easier to do concurrency that way.
Obviously there's a level of complexity where things turn into a mishmash, but using the right tool for the job — even if that means different tools for different jobs — can simplify things.
Firstly on language, it largely doesn't matter. PHP, Java and .Net being probably the biggest three are all proven in the sense that they run some of the largest sites on the Web so don't listen to anyone who tells you one is more suited than any of the others.
Some might also put Ruby and Django/Python in this list. I have nothing against them but I'm not aware of any big (say top 50) sites using either.
Hosting considerations depend on how low you want to start but basically the order is:
Shared;
Virtual Private Server;
Dedicated.
Scalability will largely be about your application's design than any language, framework or provider. Efficient database schema, efficient delivery and use of Javascript/CSS and in-memory caching are all issues common to any language or framework.
Language - I'd recommend something with good frameworks and good testing libraries like Perl or Java.
Framework - it depends on what do you plan to do. If you start with a hosting that does not allow FastCGI, it is best to avoid such frameworks like Catalyst or Rails. That's why I love CGI::Application (primarily Perl, but ported to other languages too) - it can run as CGI, FastCGI or mod_perl. For development it can be run from it's own web server.
Hosting - nothing is better than you own server. It can be your own server, leased server or virtual server. But you can start with cheapest hosting and when you need more, you should be able to afford it.
It depends.
Start by looking at your requirements (Functional or user defined) (Non Functional - aspects that describe your desired system link text)
Next I would clarify what it means to have a scalable web application. Define it as test cases that can be clearly tested (must support X page views / second with response time < Y seconds).
Once I had those pieces in place I would look at what type of skills my development team can support (for the intial project and on going maintenance). Then find some case studies of applications out in the wild that use similar language or framework. If someone else has made a specific language / framework scale then chances are good that you can too.
Finally go out and look for some hosting providers that support your chosen language, framework and requirements.