I want to learn a framework that promotes good programming practices and is respected by the programming community.
However, I also want a framework that I can use for a day job.
Which one would you recommend?
This question comes from my experience of learning the basics of Django because it was highly acclaimed by developers on Stack Overflow and Hacker News. However.. there's hardly any jobs in my area (NYC) that are asking for Django developers.
As a long-time ASP.NET guy, I've recently gone through a similar decision process to figure out what other web frameworks I should try. Here's what I learned so far which may apply to your case too:
framework/platofrm choices (and hence job opportunities) are highly regional-- the Bay Area job market differs alot from what you'll find in NYC, Chicago, Montreal, or London. Look at local job listings (craigslist and indeed are good places to start) to get a good sense at what's in demand.
similarly, usage varies alot based on the size and type of company. if you want to get a job in a large company, Spring MVC and ASP.NET MVC may be your best bets. In small companies, DJango and (especially) Rails seem to be on the rise.
usage also sometimes varies by industry. for example, many HR apps seem be to .NET based, while financial/banking apps seem to favor Java. if you want to work in a particular industry, check out what up-and-coming companies in that industry are using.
when investing your scarce time in learning something new, favor technologies which are on the upswing of the adoption curve (e.g. Rails) rather than frameworks with wider adoption which may not be growing as fast. Also be wary of very early or niche frameworks which may not ever gain wide adoption.
the one common thread between most (or almost all) frameworks gaining in popularity is that they're MVC frameworks and rely heavily on a solid understanding of REST. Learning those concepts in depth is a good idea.
before deciding to invest a lot of time in one framework, gain a basic understanding of several of them, so you can get a reasonable sense of what you like and don't about each-- and so if you end up applying for a job using a framework you haven't learned, at least you'll be able to talk intelligently about it.
If you focus on what you enjoy, you'll be more motivated to learn it. For example, personally I found Rails (regarless of employment opportunities) more interesting than Spring or Django, so I decided to focus on Rails first. Others may have different impressions-- follow your programmer instincts. That said, there are often few jobs using technologies you find fascinating, so try to strike the right balance: technology you like that many companies are actually hiring people to use!
once you answer the basic "what framework" question, there are many more questions lurking, including picking a javascript framework, validation framework, an ORM, etc. Don't worry too much about those choices yet-- when starting, just pick the default implementation for your framework. But as you get more advanced, the same argument about frameworks also hold for those other things-- e.g. it's useful to know a few ORMs.
Personally, I decided on this approach:
continue building stuff in what I knew best (ASP.NET) but transition all work to ASP.NET MVC, where I can better understand MVC and REST concepts which apply cross-platform
learn JQuery (again, platform neutral)
blow off the ORM choice alltogether for now-- too many other things to worry about
build a few projects in Rails, which is the framework I see used most in the newer SF-Bay-Area startups I've been looking at
learn the basics (e.g. read a book or two, try a few samples) about Python/Django, Java/Spring, and Groovy/Grails.
I've encountered real projects at cool, small companies using Django, Ruby on Rails and (eiuw!) even Zope. .NET is for teletubbies - I've only ever heard of it being used by big corporations that don't know better.
I would say that knowing two or three is better than knowing one that is widely used because you will gain a better understanding of how it works as a concept. For instance if you've only used Java, there is something probably missing in your understanding of OOP, because you're pigeon-holed into thinking about it in one way. If you already know Django though you Spring would probably be a good compliment to that.
i'd probably say ASP.NET MVC. I always see lots of .NET jobs around and this seems to be a solid framework which i think in fact powers all the stackoverflow family. As a PHP developer i must also make a mention of Zend Framework which is used by a number of big sites including bbc.co.uk and is now frequently mentioned in advertisements for PHP jobs.
I want to learn a framework that promotes good programming practices and is respected by the programming community. However, I also want a framework that I can use for a day job.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news here, but those two desires tend to conflict. IMHO most business managers tend to go for (ugly) rapid development on top of CRMs or other higher-level 3rd party codebases. Building elegant websites from the ground up mostly happens in startups, or true web companies where the website is the sole product. There are not that many of those companies; and many of those that seem to fit are actually a mess on the inside, i.e. due to time pressure, messy legacy code and many other reasons you often don't get to write according to "good programming practices" anyway.
I agree with Kaleb Brasee that Java and .NET are the two main platforms when job availability is a priority.
Every job market is unique, so look at job openings in your area, or call a handful of recruiters and ask what they see a need for / could easily place you in a junior position for. What I'm seeing is that Microsoft Sharepoint is in demand, and a few other regional CMS'es are in demand (in Denmark I see Sitecore regularly).
I think ASP.NET MVC 2.0 together with MVC Areas and ASP.NET Dynamic Data will have a good story, a good solution, for many of those bosses who want rapid development. And I think the resulting code could be quite okay, or at least not bad compared to many of the "CMS beaten into something else" sites that exist. But this is a brand new thing for the .NET platform, and it will need to be sold to the decision makers first...
Bottom line: If you want job security first and foremost, then look at large CMS's like Sharepoint, and work on other technologies in your spare time. Optionally you could take a job at a startup / a web company later; but look before you leap.
Have you tried Spring MVC? Many companies do use Java for web-apps (or .NET) and web service based applications.
Since you mentioned Ruby on Rails, you might want to learn Ruby on Rails. It has got some good programming practices in it and a very well thought architecture. The Ruby community itself have also (in my personal opinion) created very innovative frameworks and highly favor testing and quality. You can see this by the innovative testing framework like Cucumber, webrat, shoulda, coulda, rspec, test/spec. Many startups also uses Rails as their platform, so it should be easier for you to get a job. You can start looking at Working With Rails and 37signals job board. So there is a good ecosystem inside Rails and Ruby community.
But the downside of Rails compare to Django is mainly there are too much magic (less explicit) and the docs is not as good as Django. If you want to get a Django job, try looking at several news site because Django grew up from a newspaper site so it is adopted alot in news based sites.
I would recommend ASP.NET MVC, Ruby on Rails, or Python/Django, they all seem to be popular and successful, and based on the MVC paradigm which is definitely the right tool for the job when it comes to the web.
.NET and Java are by far the 2 largest platforms used by employers, and hence the most in-demand when searching for a job. Java has a few popular frameworks, with JSF, Spring MVC and Struts all seeming to be about equal in demand. I don't use .NET, but from what I've seen, ASP.NET and ASP.NET MVC are the major ones.
I would say that most of the frameworks mentioned here promotes good practices. But that doesn't neccesarily mean that the companies using those frameworks are actually following those good practices! In fact most probably aren't. So don't expect too much.
You see, places like Stack Overflow, Hacker News etc. are a great way to connect with people who really care about their craft. Sadly this is a minority. There are millions of programmers in the world. Most of them suck. The code they write sucks. They don't care. They are not interested in improving their skills. They just want to learn the bare minimum required to collect their paycheck, go home, feed the dog, spend some time with the family, watch some TV, go too bed and do it all over again the next day.
Okay that was a bit harsh :) What I'm getting at is that you are probably better off asking this question to some of the managers at the companies where you would like to work. My guess is that most of them will answer .NET or Java. If you are up for a laugh ask them why they chose that particular technology over something else, and see how many buzzwords they throw at you ;)
Related
I'm quite new to the field of computer science but I think I've got a pretty decent idea for a website to aid classroom CS learning and collaboration. I'd really like to develop the website from the ground up and make it a sort of pet project in hopes of eventually getting it out on the web for free. Hopefully I can get some teachers to adopt it for use with their classes.
The problem is that I honestly don't know where to start. I've got the idea but I don't have enough formal education to guide the implementation of my idea. The site should have quite a bit of functionality in the long run. I'll need to be able to store user and class data/files as well as offer discussion boards and other things.
Without getting into too many details, what is the best way for me to get started? What languages and databases should I be most interested in as I build the site and ensure scalability and future functionality developments? I would really appreciate any information you could give me on how to structure the project/stack as I don't have much of a clue at this point. I have the idea. Now I just need a little bit of help getting started.
Thanks!
There are definitely already projects out there that will (more than likely) do everything you're currently considering. That said, there's immense benefit in doing a project like this for personal development - you get to learn, and you expand your public portfolio. If you run the project as open source, you can also demonstrate your ability to work with others. All very good (hireable) attributes.
Are there any programming languages you already know? Are there any that your course is going to be teaching that you know ahead of time?
There are so many different languages and frameworks available to choose from, but I'll only mention a few.
Language: Framework
.NET: ASP.NET MVC
python: django
ruby: ruby-on-rails
I'm a huge fan of django. Python is quite a nice language to learn. I'd recommend django purely from a biased point of view. Python runs on Windows, Linux, and Mac, though you probably don't want to host python on windows (culture more than ability).
Conversely, if you really like Windows, ASP.NET MVC makes building out websites very very easy. Mono does allow you to run .NET on linux and mac, but you might find support lacking, and I wouldn't suggest using Mono for your first project.
PHP is (was?) another popular language for building websites in. There are tonnes of web frameworks available for PHP. Popular opinion seems to be that PHP makes it easier for developers to write bad code, though it is possible to write good code with PHP.
Unfortunately, without knowing a rough direction in which you're headed, it's nearly impossible to offer some concrete advice. Database choice will generally come down to what language and platform (linux/.net) you're targeting. Web server also fits this profile. Once you decide on a language, narrowing down the other choices become a lot easier.
Learn HTML to start with and keep improving as per needed with css , javascript. You won't need more then this.
I have just started looking into .net MVC and I really like it.
There are a few developers within our team who think the same. But before we are allowed to use it for any project we need to get the approval of management.
What would be the best way to convince management(which know little about programming) that this would worth while and it could have some cost benefit?
My belief is that it will force us to write better more accessible sites which are a lot more testable than web forms. Which in return would mean less bugs and higher customer satisfaction. But I have no evidence of this.
EDIT:
We have a team meeting in 4 days, this is where I will be making my pitch to the team and management.That gives me two weeks to learn more on MVC and do a presentation.
Ok, I'm a manager. I've been one for more than 10 years. Luckily, I've been able to stay very current with my technology passions, so I think I can speak from both sides of the fence.
Managers are going to be concerned with three things here: risk, cost, and the status quo. So, when you present your plan, you're going to need to address each of these:
Risk:
Explain to them that the risk here is very low.
MVC2 is just an extension of MVC, both of which has full source code available (management speak: if we find a problem, we don't need support. We can fix it ourselves).
There's a ton of community support. (management speak: I can go online and get answers to any questions I have in a matter of minutes).
Heavy-hitters at Microsoft are pushing this (management speak: Microsoft is encouraging their developers to use this technology).
Cost
Talk about the fact that the technology is free, with a ton of community support.
Be ready to talk about ramp-up costs for any developers that don't have MVC experience. They're going to be less productive at first. Let your manager know that the developers will come up to speed quickly, and that MVC provides more efficient coding approach than traditional web forms.
Be ready to talk about costs and risks associated with ongoing maintenance. If you've already got a ton of web forms out in the wild, this will present a second skillset that developers will need to maintain. Find ways to convince management that it will be possible to maintain this skillset.
Status Quo
Many people become managers because they want a level of security and control in their life. If this is the case with your manager, they'll be interested in maintaining a comfortable status quo, and not making significant changes. If that's true here, you need to make the case that this really isn't a major change from what's being done today. Assure them that you have a back-out strategy. Talk about how this is really a proof-of-concept for MVC use in your organization, and that management will have an opportunity to review the success of the project prior to you ever suggesting MVC become a standard.
Really what it comes down to is the fact that ASP.NET MVC forces developers to write better, more scalable, and easier to test code. It moves them away from the crapshoot that webforms often can be, and in a direction oriented toward quality architecture and good clean code that follows more rigid conventions.
One definite drawback of MVC is that the View structure required by the webforms view engine (default) encourages you to write spaghetti code in the views that is, at times, a nightmare to maintain. Given this fact, you might even want to pitch them with the new Razor View Engine that was recently announced. With it you can write some extremely clean view code that even the non-developers at your company could manipulate without bringing mass death and destruction to your application. Compared to the markup in the webforms view engine, Razor's markup is pretty much beautiful.
Also, check out this really solid blog post by my buddy Matt Hidinger which does a great job of breaking down why MVC is so awesome.
When you speak to management just be sure to emphasize the all good points mentioned so far, and then compare them to all the bad that webforms is/can be. Be practical and realistic; if you have enough people on your team that are ready to jump on board with MVC then it's pretty much the best possible decision you can make, in my opinion, anyway. You may even want to take a moment to show them some of the great sites that use it- like Stack Overflow.
Personally, I have launched about 15 separate sites built with ASP.NET MVC and as such I feel I have a pretty solid understanding of it. I can wholeheartedly tell you, from my experience, MVC is the best thing that ever happened to ASP.NET.
It really depends on what you're comparing it to, but assuming it's an alternative to webforms, a few items to mention:
better testability
more control over output, which can help target other devices
leverage existing knowledge of .net
MVC framework encourages you to write more structured, testable and, as a result, more maintainable code. As the biggest costs in development are in the debugging and maintenance, those benefits alone should be a good validation. That said, it's still possible to code crap in MVC and that shouldn't be overlooked. If your company has a lot of expertise in another development framework then you really need to address the deficiencies in that and how MVC can rectify those deficiencies.
I would start by looking up blog sites that support MVC and compiling some of the advantageous features of MVC. I would start with Scott Guthrie's initial blog post regarding MVC - it outlines some great features - http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2007/10/14/asp-net-mvc-framework.aspx
If you are looking at trying to bring MVC in and need to convince management of the value, your best approach is too show how it can reduce long term support costs. Having an application that has well developed unit tests with decent code coverage can ensure quality over the life cycle of the application because you can higher level of confidence that changes you introduce have not broken pieces of the application. This doesn't negate the need to test the application, but you will find breaking changes faster. An approach utilizing MVC over MVC is a much more flexible platform for this testing.
There are many studies you can utilize that show the long terms support/maintenance costs of an application are often greater than the initial development costs. Stephen McConnell's Code First has a good discussion of this.
Good luck!
As opposed to what? Management would rather you wrote poorly-designed code? I'm surprised it's even an issue, in that whatever else they're asking you to do, by the current state of the industry, is self-evidently the wrong decision. If they know what MVC is, I can't see how any reasonable person would want you not to use it.
Sell it as an ASP.NET component, only made by Microsoft to incorporate some of the newer web 2.0 technologies moving forward. Tell them it will enhance maintainability while reducing development time. Tell them it uses existing infrastructure, and is more performant. Tell them it uses existing investments in training and software. Tell them it is more efficient, and makes it easier to fix issues and build enhancements. Tell them they'll get more out of their development team without allocating more resources.
I want to make a community based site, which is Drupal's strength. However I also want to try other frameworks, especially Rails.
One of the best things about drupal is its huge modules library. If I were to switch to Rails, would I be able to find similar functionality freely available as plugins, or would I have to rebuild?
Does Rails have the equivalent of (as plugins or gems):
CCK/Fields?
Node Reference?
Views / Views Relationships?
PathAuto?
Threaded Commenting?
Multisite Functionality?
Apache Solr (or equivalent) Integration?
Thanks.
I'm afraid you'll probably hear this answer a lot, but it's not a suitable comparison.
Drupal is a ultimately a CMS, Rails is a framework. Apples to oranges, or perhaps even Apple Juice to oranges. Out of the box, you fire up Drupal and it does 'things': it has a database structure, the concept of nodes, interfaces blah, blah. If you fire up Rails you have an empty project.
As far as I know there isn't a "Drupal-on-Rails" project that would be a suitable equivalent. However, I can attest to the fact that there is an awful lot of Ruby/Rails community and O/S work out there and you might find something suitable. I'd also say that the level of modularity in Ruby and Rails tends to mean that the range of plugins/modules/gems one can use is much greater.
My personal $0.02. If Drupal does what you need, just use Drupal: it's mature and has a great community. It's never a good idea to try to port Project X over to a new language as a learning exercise because you'll inevitable fall into the "Well that's how it's done in language X!" trap and become disenchanted with the new system.
If you're wanting to learn Rails (which you should, it's awesome) I'd suggest you'd be best working on a small project and seeing what the ecosystem offers before deciding if it's suitable for the needs of your bigger projects.
I have to second what Govan said, but add to it.
With Drupal, unless you really want to get into building your own modules and extensions you are really interacting with an application. Even when you start using CCK, all you are really doing is flipping switches, filling in forms and defining new options for content on the site.
Ruby on Rails is two things, and neither of them bares much similarity to Drupal. You asked "How hard is it really?". To answer that you need to understand what both Ruby and Rails are. Ruby is a programming language designed to make the life of the object purist programmer simpler and more pleasant. So, the first part of how hard is it is simply to answer "how long do you feel it would take you to learn a completely new programming language, like PHP but different".
Rails is an 'opinionated' framework. It's opinionated in that it lays out how a Ruby web project should be structured, as well as providing multiple APIs for everything from database access to web presentation. To answer the "how hard is it" question for Rails then (assuming you know Ruby by this point), you have to answer how much do you need to learn about cacheing, database design, page design, RESTful programming etc etc.
It's not a short journey. you asked if there is an equivalent to CCK for Ruby and Rails which implies to me that at this point your knowledge of programming is somewhat limited. Ruby and Rails interact with the database. CCK lets you define things in a database. Thus, with Ruby and Rails you are effectively bypassing the wonderful dialogs and forms that CCK provides you with and doing the data definition bits yourself, by hand, in code.
From experience, when I've hired experts in another programming language and framework into my Rails teams, it has taken them between 1 and 3 months to get productive, and a further 3 to 6 months for their productivity to start to raise and approach that of the Rails experts on my team.
Thus, in your particular case, I would not recommend a switch away from Drupal to Ruby on Rails.
Drupal (core) on ohloh (130k lines of code) is estimated to be 34 years of work worth.
Drupal (contributions) on ohloh (modules for Drupal 4-6 (7M lines of code)) is estimated to be 2113 years of work.
That is the power of a community, and that is something that you can never replicate. I remeber there was a guy, who tried to port Drupal to python calling it drupy, but that project died before something useful ever came out of it. Even if you copy the code, you can never copy the community.
The thing you need to realize, is that each community is different. So even if you find a project that can solve your code needs in a RoR or a different language/framework, it will never be like Drupal and vice versa.
So don't try to find a replacement for Drupal, but go explore and try new things. You might end up learning new things, that you can use for your Drupal projects.
I've read this times and times again that people saying comparing drupal an ror is comparing apple to orange which is wrong.
I think the saying itself BS. Yes we want to compare apple to orange and find out which is better. We even want to compare apple to steak. Said that, they are different. Yes, we all know. I have limited experience with either. I first thought Drupal was great and can help me build the website I wanted overnight (or over a week or month) then it didn't happen (not blaming Drupal).
My impression is that, Drupal maybe still great but it has a learning curve and needs a lot of other knowledge or talents to use it well and tweak it. RoR on the other hand is a more general framework and needs programming (Drupal needs too actually).
If you are more of a web designer person with a little PHP maybe Drupal is better fit.
If you are more of a web developer type don't want to spend time looking for modules and make them work but rather do them yourself (not really from ground up) then maybe RoR is for you (with the same amount of learning). So yes they are both good for different purpose, background, etc.
For now I will go with RoR (or dJango and other ORANGEs). My 2 cents.
Rails, since version 3.0, has officially adopted the once-controversial engine way of incorporating third-party apps. this is roughly the equivalent of Drupal's modules/plug-ins, from a 10k foot perspective. To build a community-based site, you could make use of an engine called, appropriately enough, "Community Engine." http://communityengine.org/features.html"
The Rails ecosystem doesn't have anywhere near the same number of modules Drupalists have available to them, but there are enough good quality ones to cover the chief basics.
Drupal has so many strong areas, its hard for just one or two people to recreate it in a decent amount of time with any language. PHP, Ruby, Python, etc.
You have the core node system, taxonomy, aliasing, menus, users, permissions, and modules, the database api, and form api, among others.
You'd have to know how to assemble all these pieces independently and create the structure necessary for it to all work together.
It would take more than 'a few hours'. I would say, even if you are a ROR master, you're looking at a year to two years of solid consistent work to get the best parts of Drupal for a new system.
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This question is not about which is the best, it is about which makes the most business sense to use as a company's platform of choice for ongoing freelance development.
I'm currently trying to decide what framework to move my company in regarding frameworks for web application work.
Options are
ASP.NET MVC
Django
CakePHP/Symfony etc..
Struts
Pearl on Rails
Please feel free to add more to the discussion.
I currently work in ASP.NET MVC in my Spare time, and find it incredibly enjoyable to work with. It is my first experince with an MVC framework for the web, so I can't talk on the others.
The reason for not pushing this at the company is that I feel that there are not many developers in the Media/Marketing world who would work with this, so it may be hard to extend the team, or at least cost more.
I would like to move into learning and pushing Django, partly to learn python, partly to feel a bit cooler (all my geeky friends use Java/Python/c++). Microsoft is the dark side to most company's I work with (Marketing/Media focused). But again I'm worried about developers in this sector.
PHP seems like the natural choice, but I'm scared by the sheer amount of possible frameworks, and also that the quality of developer may be lower. I know there are great php developers out there, but how many of them know multiple frameworks? Are they similar enough that anyone decent at php can pick them up?
Just put struts in the list as an option, but personally I live with a Java developer, and considering my experience with c#, I'm just not that interested in learning Java (selfish personal geeky reasons)
Final option was a joke
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2007/11/perl_on_rails.shtml
As you said for the media/digital marketing sector php is the way to go.
I love .Net (it would be my first choice if the target market wasn't a factor).
I would really look for good well rounded developers regardless of their tech or market as opposed to ones with "media/digital marketing sector" experience.
It is possible to find good/experienced/reliable developers with knowledge of multiple frameworks. If this is a requirement, it is of course possible to vet candidates accordingly.
Given that you're referring to freelance development, it would probably make sense to add the dimension of "where the developer is based" into your thinking, as dealing with someone who's a stone throw's away compared to dealing with someone abroad or another city may affect how you work together. This means that where you are based also affects your choice: if you're based in a small town, there will be less quality canditates close to you with suitable skill sets.
I'm currently learning Symfony for myself, and work as a freelance advisor/product developer for a site that's built with CakePHP. Although an experienced PHP developer should be able to make the leap from one of the above to the other quite quickly, there's a fair amount of framework-specific intricacies that can only really be learnt by coming across the problem and then searching for the solution, or by being guided by someone who already knows. Symfony is considered to have good documentation, but I feel that there's a quite a lot in it that's also not in the documentation and that can really only be learnt by doing it.
I also worked for a company quite recently who used Symfony, hired high-quality PHP developers only, and if I recall correctly, it was about a month or two for new guys to get familiar with the code and the workings of Symfony, and start becoming properly productive.
Hope that helps.
In my (heavily biased) opinion, Django is gaining some traction in this sector. Off the top of my head I can think of a number of high-profile news organizations that are making significant use of Django and I've seen reports of organizations utilizing Django for putting up special one-off sites quickly for unique coverage of special events or circumstances. I know firsthand that PBS and National Geographic also use Django extensively for their web properties and I understand Discovey Channel does as well. There is a nice testimonial about how Michael Moore's site was rebuilt quickly using Django: http://blog.concentricsky.com/2009/10/michaelmoore/. I'm not sure if MSNBC has begun utilizing Django internally, but they did acquire Everyblock.
A few others I'm aware of that use Django heavily:
Mahalo
NASA
University of Texas
I've also seen that Django is being used by startups outside the media sector so I wouldn't say it is specialized toward a particular business sector. There are a lot of organizations out there that have been sort of silently using Python internally over the years and so Django is quickly becoming a natural option for web-based services. Python actually has decent roots in the scientific communities, financial sector, and I've spoken with a number of people in the entertainment industry who use Python in their digital effects / post production pipelines.
Maybe not the most riveting content overall, but there is some good info in here: http://djangocon.blip.tv/file/3041158
Look at your clients. Frameworks are just tools, you will have to go with the tool that suits the particular job. This also means your choice to dive into a framework will choose your future clients.
Many SMB shops need PHP because that it is the easiest to host and is interoperable on many layers of "platform" (not just OS, but also supports all DBs etc.)
ASP.NET MVC: I heard a lot of awesomeness about it, I like C# as well. But I can't afford to go only with the options Microsoft provides (database for example) and Microsoft products only really support they own stuff.
Django: Expected to gain huge momentum, but I'll wait until the language itself (syntax) becomes stable.
CakePHP/Symfony: CakePHP is very easy to pick up and is a good choice if it fits all the requirements.
Struts: Quite heavy, I would learn Spring (MVC) instead.
Pearl on Rails: Haven't really used/seen it, so no idea.
You could also consider to learn a framework that is radically different from you current knowledge.
So I love Symfony. It does all I need for a Framework to work fast and clean.
The structure and the architecture is pre-defined so everybody knows where to put stuff, so you can easily work together with a whole bunch of developers.
I would never chose CakePHP over Symfony, because if you have to make changes to a model, you can never again generate code after the development has started.
CakePHP just overwrites everything.
I sure lost all my code a few times. Really annoying.
Symfony just extends the generated code and that is where you develop.
Here you find a good discussion about CodeIgniter (with which I develop at the moment, and it is no MVC and PHP4-based) and Symfony: codeigniter-vs-symfony
The learning curve is a bit steeper for Symfony, but it has enough complexity for all situations I ever encountered.
My next project will again base on Symfony 1.4. And if you can wait, there will soon be Symfony 2.0
ASP.NET MVC, but only if you can use both a frontend and a backend developer for each project. It'll probably be harder to find developers with both competences and you might have to push .net-developers a bit to get them to use MVC.
What language, framework, and hosting considerations should one make before starting development of a scalable web application?
The most important consideration is not to over-engineer to the point that it gets in the way of building and launching something. Analysis paralysis is the single biggest inhibitor to productivity, progress and results.
Yes, do some planning. Pick a framework. Perfection in a framework will be impossible to find because it doesn't exist, partially because you don't know what you need until you build it anyways. Chances are, if you pick something, it will be better than picking nothing.
Yes, try to pick flexible, inter-operable tools for where you see yourself going.
Yes, look for a good built-in feature set where you see yourself going in the next 6-18 Months. Trying to look beyond that is not really realistic anyways as most projects change so much anyways going towards the first release.
So, pick what you're comfortable with or what is familiar. Don't follow the crowd, do what gets you the best results, quickest, and often. Understand that you might have to change in the future. So, whatever you build now, try to use unit testing so you can re-factor if ever needed.
If what you're building is going to be super successful, it will be a great problem to have, and an easy one to work on once it's making money as you'll be able to get other talent to help you.
Share what you end up picking and why for your situation -- it helps the us learn from you too!
Don't necessarily marry yourself to one language or framework. It may be that some parts of your site work better with different languages and frameworks than others. For example, all of 37signals' sites are based on Ruby on Rails, but they recently wrote a blog post about how the underlying technology of one is actually written in Erlang now because it's much easier to do concurrency that way.
Obviously there's a level of complexity where things turn into a mishmash, but using the right tool for the job — even if that means different tools for different jobs — can simplify things.
Firstly on language, it largely doesn't matter. PHP, Java and .Net being probably the biggest three are all proven in the sense that they run some of the largest sites on the Web so don't listen to anyone who tells you one is more suited than any of the others.
Some might also put Ruby and Django/Python in this list. I have nothing against them but I'm not aware of any big (say top 50) sites using either.
Hosting considerations depend on how low you want to start but basically the order is:
Shared;
Virtual Private Server;
Dedicated.
Scalability will largely be about your application's design than any language, framework or provider. Efficient database schema, efficient delivery and use of Javascript/CSS and in-memory caching are all issues common to any language or framework.
Language - I'd recommend something with good frameworks and good testing libraries like Perl or Java.
Framework - it depends on what do you plan to do. If you start with a hosting that does not allow FastCGI, it is best to avoid such frameworks like Catalyst or Rails. That's why I love CGI::Application (primarily Perl, but ported to other languages too) - it can run as CGI, FastCGI or mod_perl. For development it can be run from it's own web server.
Hosting - nothing is better than you own server. It can be your own server, leased server or virtual server. But you can start with cheapest hosting and when you need more, you should be able to afford it.
It depends.
Start by looking at your requirements (Functional or user defined) (Non Functional - aspects that describe your desired system link text)
Next I would clarify what it means to have a scalable web application. Define it as test cases that can be clearly tested (must support X page views / second with response time < Y seconds).
Once I had those pieces in place I would look at what type of skills my development team can support (for the intial project and on going maintenance). Then find some case studies of applications out in the wild that use similar language or framework. If someone else has made a specific language / framework scale then chances are good that you can too.
Finally go out and look for some hosting providers that support your chosen language, framework and requirements.