Okay. I'm NOT asking which one is better. I know Yii is not better than Symfony, Symfony is not better then Yii.
I'm asking which one should i go with it.
I want to give some points:
I have a large project which is very-well formatted and very-well coded. If you seen my codes you would think that i made my own framework but its not. It just that very-well coded. I'm using custom made Controllers for HTTP requests.
All i want to do is make my code much more easier to use and much more easier to understand and easier to edit. Component by component editing and extending.
I'm also using Zend Framework as a component but not framework base.
So, as you developers, which project framework for base coding do i really go with it. Yii or Symfony?
I actually loved Yii but Symfony's Bundle systemn and Namespaces are attract me. But i really wonder which one should i go.
As i said, im not asking which one is better. I want to get your throughts regarding to this issue.
I'm open for suggestions. Give me a path.
Yii is probably the truest 'framework' of all the options - it provides the scaffolding you need with almost no assumptions about how you would prefer to implement anything (except perhaps the inclusion of jQuery). It is incredibly fast to develop with, and very very fast to execute which translates to excellent scalability.
Projects I have used Yii for have always ended up well ahead of schedule - Yii just seems to make sense in the way it works. My experience with Symfony is limited, I will admit, but compared to Zend Yii is a breeze. The Gii MVC generator is a fantastic head start too, generating models and basic CRUD code from your database tables.
ALl this is just my opinion from my own experience, but that is what you asked for :)
I think what you search is to see what is the recommendations more than any Evangelism.
Just to give some pointers about what is the current state of PHP, and nice components that is using the latest php features.
Requirements
Make sure what you use has, a way to...:
send to the log (Monolog is a good one)
parse text only config (YAML is a good one)
logic-less templating, with some convention (Mustach, Twig)
dependencies definition manifests (Composer is the way to go, very similar to package.json that Node offers)
define common "service" instantiation mechanism (DependencyInjection is one example)
abstracted way to load libraries (ClassLoader component is a good one)
Localization management (see Symfony2/Twig documentation )
abstract database calls without hardcoding database vendor specific (Doctrine2, Propel)
Unit testing structure, usage and conventions (PHP Unit, Behat, Mink)
Database code doesn't use "mysql" and istead uses mysqli
And all of that distinct functionality packages that you can mix and match.
Mix and match
There is some efforts underway that address this exact issue, here some interresting ones:
The PHP Framework Interop Group is a consortium of contributors representing frameworks and they created some standards, namely the three layers known as PSR-0, PSR-1 and PSR-2
PHP The Right Way is a collaborative work on what is the current best practices.
Tobias Schlitt's definition of a framework
Hope this helps you. with your own choice of which framework to invest on.
Since you already use Zend, why not using it as a framework ??
And there is no anwser to your question, it depends on project needs...
Symfony should be use on 'big' projects with fast servers.
Yii is still a 'light' framework, but is very fast compared to Symfony, and has a short learning curve...
...etc
Related
I consider myself a well trained WordPress template developer, and i recently started to read books and documents about web app frameworks, particularly Django and Ruby on Rails. I didn't know any of the two languages, but i have no problems to learn another one or two. I really don't get the real benefits of using a framework, because i feel very confident about the power of WordPress. So, can anyone tell me the real benefits of using a framework? For example, Pinterest is made using Django, but i think that i can achieve the same results with a WordPress template using Javascript and CSS3. Can anyone tell me the differences/benefits of using a framework in that particular case?
You can achieve the same frontend with Wordpress, but what you will not be able to achieve is the speed and scale - and most importantly, maintainability - of an application based on a more application-oriented architecture.
Wordpress is highly flexible, but it's also slow, and needs an awful lot of TLC to be able to operate at any kind of significant scale. Its design allows for very flexible runtime modification of behavior, but this is also a bit of a Pandora's Box, since it means that code can end up running all over the place for any given page, which makes maintenance a nightmare.
Wordpress is extremely good at being a CMS, but once you start to push it outside of those bounds, you get into trouble, and find yourself having to write your own more abstract framework that runs inside of the context of Wordpress to be able to fulfill your application's needs.
That said, if you have an application that you can build in the context of Wordpress, I'd say go for it! Wordpress can be a wonderful tool for building a proof-of-concept or MVP. If it gets you up and running, then it may be the right choice over writing a full application. However, just be aware that you're going to hit some brick walls as your product design matures and your audience grows, unless your application fits within a rather narrow set of design requirements, so long-term, you may find yourself having to move to a custom application.
Credentials: I've spent the last couple of years maintaining a Wordpress install that served over 25 million monthly uniques, and we had to get very clever to keep it running. We've since replaced it with a Rails application that serves pages somewhere on the order of 10x-30x faster, and is significantly more extensible as an application, allowing us to start exploring application potential that we really couldn't get with Wordpress.
I once made the decision while working in some start-up to choose WordPress for an advanced e-commerce, community-driven marketplace.
It was an awful decision
This is how I was feeling:
At the beginning, it was looking good - you have an amazing community, plugins for everything etc. But sooner than later I hit the wall - at it's root - WordPress is a blogging platform!
Every piece of content technically is a post.
It's really hard to create advanced item relationships
Functionalities are not consistent. Some functions work one way, while others that seems to be very similar work in a different way. Sometimes you need some weird hacks to achieve task that seem to be simple. It makes you read the docs very often to see how a function that you're using for the 1000th time is working. (However, to be honest, I need to say that the WordPress documentation is great!)
The WordPress community is doing a great job, but compared to any regular Framework there is one main difference - Frameworks are just frameworks - they're a set of tools and those tools are there to help you do your project. WordPress already is trying to be something that you might then change.
I'll never again use WordPress for anything that needs some organised, custom functionality.
I'm actually quite impressed with what people has created with wordpress - so if you want to, it is possible and good luck!
It however often feels like buying a truck and rebuilding it to be a house. There are better ways to build a house.
I want to offer a dissenting opinion, even though I upvoted the top answer.
Is Rails really special?
Rails was created by David Hansson who extracted it from Basecamp, software that's replicated in a free Wordpress plugin, WP Project Manager. I think that's a pretty good indicator that Rails developers are underestimating PHP and Wordpress.
MVC and WP
True, it doesn't follow an MVC pattern. But if you use hooks, separate logic (in plugins) from views (in templates), then you'll have good code separation. (Also hint: custom post types are like models.)
Framework vs Application
As you can see, Wordpress can be treated like an application or a framework. It is an application, with all the components you'd expect to find in a framework. Right out of the box you have security, authentication, and extendibility. And it's meant to be extended.
Scaling
WP powers 18% of the internet's websites, including TechCrunch, Smashing Magazine, and (parts of) CNN. Seems there are ways to make WP scale. Disclaimer: I have no experience working on megasites like these, so I'm offering mere conjecture.
WP Future
The current abition of the WP community is to shift WP from a CMS to a framework. I think it's a natural progression considering that all the pieces are in place. And the Wordpress community is going strong.
Not really an answer, but a hint:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_application_frameworks
As if you can replace it completely... I think it is mostly a matter of logic flow. It depends how much imperative (Ruby on Rails) vs. descriptive (WordPress) programming you intend to do.
I don't think wordpress can replace rails, because wordpress have limited set of API and support as you compare it with RoR. Though wordpress is powerful tool for blogging application, but the same effect can be achieved with rails using gems like,
Radiant CMS,
Refinery CMS,
Locomotive.
Adding the power like ttd that can be done vary easily with rails is very difficult with wordpress.
Same with authentication and authorization mechanism like devise and cancan. There is no easy option to do the same with wordpress.
Rails make the programmer's life easier. For whole web app I will always prefer to go with the rails.
Wordpress cannot replace X framework, but the two can certainly complement each other.
For example a WP front end serving up CMS content with an attractive theme is pretty hard to beat; proxy to a back end server for custom content and voila, best of both worlds. Otherwise, WP will inevitably fall short of meeting every requirement and you'll find yourself going down the square-peg-round-hole rabbit hole, a painful place indeed; that's where X framework comes in, filling in the WP gaps.
The notion that WP does not scale may have some truth to it, but for the general case, the 95%, it will handle whatever you throw at it, particularly with WP Cache or other caching plugin thrown into the mix.
Some may say, well, you can build WP with Django or RoR! Heh, heh, you first ;-)
FWIW, I avoid dynamic language frameworks in favor of their statically/strongly typed counterparts. Use WP for the bling, and static X framework for the speed/scalability/safety. Of course, that's a matter of preference, clearly some prefer runtime flexibility over compile time safety. I'm fully in the latter camp these days...
In the simplest term,, I always want to put it like this...
You can use a framework to make WordPress it self and better
But you can't use WordPress to make a framework
Wordpress is a great CMS any way
Pros
1. We can easily set up a website using free themes and plugins
2. There are numerous number of plugins to extend our website functionality
3. Excellent Community support
4. The CMS uses PHP and MySQL, somewhat easy to lean
Cons
1. Updating plugins and themes regularly.
2. Slow
3. Malicious files can be easily injected.
I've been seeing a lot of articles and references about how to use this patterns for my first (please keep this in mind) serious project with ASP.NET MVC 3 and EF.
The project is not so big (13 tables) and it's basically a CRUD maintenance: organisations that have some users; users that can belong to a group and can create some work areas and templates... Nothing complicated. The point is that this will be the first of a project series and I'd like to create a base to work with.
My questions are:
Which of the previous patterns is the best? Does it depend of the project size?
My models would be these:
Unit of work
Dependency Injection
Do you think they are good enough and appropriate for my project?
I appreciate all your comments.
Serious application doesn't mean to be complex at first sight.
Over engineering an application upfront can be a real disaster, especially if you don't grasp all the technologies involved.
My advice would be to keep it simple. Create a basic application that fulfill requirements (get the thing done and make your boss happy) and then add new concepts along your learning path.
That doesn't mean I promote bad code, no way! Keep your code clean, well organized, etc. But don't be killed by the fear of doing something wrong.
It's normal for a developer to look back to an application made a few weeks ago and then realize that he did some shitty stuff. That's how we progress!
Last but not least, have FUN!
ASP.NET website provides usefull resources to learn the framework and all related guidances. There are a few application samples created step-by-step.
ASP.NET MVC was built with Dependency Injection in mind.
If you want to give a chance to your code to be loosely coupled and easier to change in the future you have to follow the patterns like Dependency Injection, Repository (for presistance abstraction), and UoW (for transaction abstraction).
So my answer is, you should learn about them in the first place to decide after if you want or no to follow the best practices. Even for simple project it's good to apply these patterns because often it gets bigger and bigger. and it's easy to do it in MVC so why to avoid it ?
There is many resources around to learn about. You can just google it.
I would like to answer this question in more generic way. Creating something which can be used in future is difficult than what it seems. All the pattern above can provide you infrastructure pieces to come up with some base framework.
But I would strongly suggest you to look at S.O.L.I.D principals (DI being part of it) to understand some qualities of good code. These are applicable irrespective of the technology involved.
You cannot predict the future requirement of a product\framework, but following these principle you can be better prepare to handle any future modification to the software
You might want to check out S#arp Lite which has many good examples of how to implement the things you want and can serve as a very good base on which to build something quickly.
None of the mentioned patterns are mutually exclusive. You should use the patterns that make sense based on what you are trying to accomplish, not attempt to shoehorn your application design into someone elses idea of how it should work. Sometimes trying to bend your scenario to fit a particular design pattern / practice is the worst thing you can do.
Want to make sure good unit test coverage / do TDD / ensure loose coupling? Then Dependency injection is your friend, as is the Unit of Work pattern. This is definitely a good idea for creating a maintainable, scalable application, but you can go too far with it for a small-scale application.
Need a centralized caching strategy for your data source? Then use the repository pattern. Or an ORM like NHibernate, which might do it for you.
I am about to start a new project and I am hung up on which language/framework to use. I've been a PHP programmer professionally, but it wasn't on the scale of this project. I've played around with RoR and i've been very impressed so far. Right now, the two leading candidtates are RoR and Symfony2.
My major hang ups with RoR:
- i don't know ruby, or i hardly do. i can read it ok, but get stuck writing the code.
- i've read complaints about it being slow, and it seems to be slow just at the CLI.
My major hang ups with Symfony2:
- there's practically no documentation for it. Symfony1.x? sure..but not symfony2
- there's also little support. the BB on their site is like 80% spam.
- went to install it on a local dev enviroment haven't been able to even get that running (see my first hang up)
this project will be fairly complex and go beyond the basic CRUD operations. it isn't under a super-tight timeline, but there is one. ~3 months for milestone1 which is basically a calendar, some financial organization stuff (not transactions with financial institutions, just personal finance organization type stuff), and a project manager/cms.
also, i'm open to using other frameworks, but symfony2 seems to be the best right now. if symfony2 had RoR's support/documentation/tutorials/etc it would be a no brainer.
i'm really interested in hearing what the stackoverflowverse has to say on the matter. im constantly impressed with the quality of the answers/replies on this site.
some other sub-questions (that are in my head right now):
- if you recommend a different php framework, why?
- what are you biggest gripes with any of the options mentioned?
i know CakePHP is the closest to RoR, but i've been reading that the models are a bit wonky (Many to many relationships and such).
right now, i'm leaning towards RoR. Simply put, i really want to learn it and it could do the job. i just don't know ruby and i've ready a lot of good about symfony2.
any advice you could offer will be greatly appreciated. thanks!
Personally, I'd recommend that if you're starting a new project which happens to be the largest project you've ever had to do then you should stick with what you know best. This happens to be PHP.
I've used Ruby or Rails. In fact, we have some production apps at our company that use RoR. The best way I learnt RoR was to work on small projects. I would never have considered to choose a programming language which I'm not familiar with and then on top of that learn a new framework to start coding a big project.
As for Symfony2, we started using it a couple of weeks ago. Symfony2 is an excellent framework and looks very promising. It's clean, nicely decoupled and fast. However, we ran into too many bugs/headaches/inconsistencies in Symfony2 to continue using it. We will start working on it again once it has matured and the documentation grows (lots of the docs are now out of date). Hopefully, they'll release some sort of Jobeet tutorial but for Symfony2.
Moving on to CakePHP. CakePHPs code base is old. In fact, it works fine on PHP 4.3.2. It doesn't take advantage of all the goodness that PHP5 has to offer (absract classes, interfaces, private & protected properties, exceptions, magic methods, annotations, pass objects by reference etc.) CakePHPs database abstraction layer, whilst it has had improvements, is not incredibly efficient once your database structures becomes too complex (many joins for example) it crumbles quite badly.
Moving on to Symfony 1.4 which I've used for many large projects
I enjoy using because:
PHP5
Event system
Dependency Injection
Caching system
Forms (nice integration into Doctrine 2) In fact, this is my favourite feature.
Many plugins (sfGuard for user management, for example)
Twig (nice templating language)
Highly configurable
Scalable (although not as fast as Symfony2)
A lot of documentation (Jobeet tutorial is great)
If PHP is for the moment your forte and you need to start working on a large project then start using a PHP based framework as you know the language syntax and functions the best.
Move onto RoR when you have a small project to do.
Just my 2 cents.
Best of luck.
To me Symfony2 has been great so far. Documentation is scarce compared to Symfony1.x but it's much easier to get started in Sf2 and, with things being very explicit, requires less knowledge of how the framework works internally.
There's an app/check.php script that will warn you of any dependency needed to run it, and support mostly happens in their mailing list which is very active (didn't even know there was a BB). Some components, like Twig, also have their own lists.
This is an old topic but things have changed a bit and I would recommend Symfony2. Their current documentation is great (symfony.com) and its much easier to learn for newbies. I did try RoR but with symfony I just got into it much quicker.
I'm amazed of how no one has mentioned the super rich GEM community for Ruby and therefore for Ruby on Rails, there is simply just so much functionality out there, so many people working on some many MIT/open source projects. To me, community is what drives me to go choose one framework over another. The amount of configurations and different template engines, there is just so much out there for ruby on rails.
For a comparison chart check this out:
http://vschart.com/compare/doctrine-php/vs/ruby-on-rails
At the end of the day it all boils down to whatever you know, but do not overlook the community and the functionality that has been written for you already, free of charge...
I'll echo solarc's comments about Symfony 2. I used it for a couple small projects, and am starting something more ambitious with it this week. I would like to see a complete Jobeet-style tutorial, but the main documentation is good enough to get started with IMHO. I'm giving that a thorough read, and have learned a few things that I missed using the documentation as a simple reference.
Finding bundles was my biggest frustration, but the documentation mentions knpbundles.com, and that seems like an excellent resource.
Django as a framework is a neat little package. There are very few files (compared to Rails) and it's got a clean structure. The fact that you can plug and unplug apps between different projects is an extremely nifty feature. At the same time, Ruby's hacking ability is unparalleled. It's complete object-orientedness makes it more expressive and fun.
To cut the story short, is there a Django-like or Django inspired framework on Ruby?
If not, would be possible for an implementation of Django on Ruby? What would be the challenges?
If one were to create a Django-inspired framework for Ruby, how would it's Domain Specific Language (DSL) nature come into play?
I've spent a good chunk of my past life using Symfony, which is a PHP framework heavily inspired from Rails. When I saw Django, it came as a bout of fresh air. I'm really curious to know what you guys think and have to say on this.
Update: I stumbled on a framework call Ramaze for Ruby. It seems to be a bare-bones MVC framework with pluggable components for the JS framework, ORM layer and the templating engine. So you could use Prototype / Sequel / Sass, or Mootools / ActiveRecord / XSLT, or any other combination of your choice! As a side-note, Merb is an interesting choice too.
Update 2: I'm sticking to PHP for big-ass commercial projects and Django for my personal projects. Reason why I decided to side with Django was the amount of flexibility it offered. That said, I realized that with greater power comes greater responsibility.
My advice to others: if you know exactly what you want - go with Django. It's probably easier to define things explicitly in it than in Rails. Merb may have been a good choice too, but I didn't have the time to explore it. Django seemed like a good fit and so I stopped being anal about the language I'm using. Thanks for all the help guys!
Try merb, merb-slices, and datamapper is probably the closest you can get in ruby.
I think you need to define a little closer what you mean by "Django-like". Depending on your exact definition, any of these might fit the bill:
Ruby on Rails
Mack
Waves
Merb
Iowa
Is having less files really a deciding factor on choosing a framework?
I agree that keeping track of a smaller number of files is easier on the brain, but I would choose a framework on:
documentation
size of community
maturity
before I woried about file count.
I've got to do some significant development in a large, old, spaghetti-ridden ASP system. I've been away from ASP for a long time, focusing my energies on Rails development.
One basic step I've taken is to refactor pages into subs and functions with meaningful names, so that at least it's easy to understand # the top of the file what's generally going on.
Is there a worthwhile MVC framework for ASP? Or a best practice at how to at least get business logic out of the views? (I remember doing a lot of includes back in the day -- is that still the way to do it?)
I'd love to get some unit testing going for business logic too, but maybe I'm asking too much?
Update:
There are over 200 ASP scripts in the project, some thousands of lines long ;) UGH!
We may opt for the "big rewrite" but until then, when I'm in changing a page, I want to spend a little extra time cleaning up the spaghetti.
Assumptions
The documentation for the Classic ASP system is rather light.
Management is not looking for a rewrite.
Since you have been doing ruby on rails, your (VB/C#) ASP.NET is passable at best.
My experience
I too inherited a classic ASP system that was slapped together willy-nilly by ex excel-vba types. There was a lot of this stuff <font size=3>crap</font> (and sometimes missing closing tags; Argggh!). Over the course of 2.5 years I added a security system, a common library, CSS+XHTML and was able to coerce the thing to validate xhtml1.1 (sans proper mime type, unfortunately) and built a fairly robust and ajaxy reporting system that's being used daily by 80 users.
I used jEdit, with cTags (as mentioned by jamting above), and a bunch of other plugins.
My Advice
Try to create a master include file from which to import all the stuff that's commonly used. Stuff like login/logout, database access, web services, javascript libs, etc.
Do use classes. They are ultra-primitive (no inheritance) but as jamting said, they can be convenient.
Indent the scripts properly.
Comment
Write an external architecture document. I personally use LyX, because it's brain-dead to produce a nicely formatted pdf, but you can use whatever you like. If you use a wiki, get the graphviz add-in installed and use it. It's super easy to make quick diagrams that can be easily modified.
Since I have no idea how substantial the enhancements need to be, I suggest having a good high-level to mid-level architecture document will be quite useful in planning the enhancements.
On the business logic unit tests, the only thing I found that works is setting up an xml-rpc listener in asp that imports the main library and exposes the functions (not subroutines though) in any of the main library's sub-includes, and then build, separately, a unit test system in a language with better support for the stuff that calls the ASP functions through xml-rpc. I use python, but I think Ruby should do the trick. (Does that make sense?). The cool thing is that the person writing the unit-test part of the software does not need to even look at the ASP code, as long as they have decent descriptions of the functions to call, so they can be someone beside you.
There is a project called aspunit at sourceforge but the last release was in 2004 and it's marked as inactive. Never used it but it's pure vbscript. A cursory look at the code tells me it looks like the authors knew what they were doing.
Finally, if you need help, I have some availability to do contract telecommuting work (maybe 8 hours/week max). Follow the link trail for contact info.
Good luck! HTH.
Since a complete rewrite of a working system can be very dangerous i can only give you a small tip: Set up exuberant tags, ctags, on your project. This way you can jump to the definition of a function and sub easy, which i think helps a lot.
On separating logic from "views". VBScript supports som kind of OO with classes. I tend to write classes which do the logic which I include on the asp-page which acts as a "view". Then i hook together the view with the class like Username: <%= MyAccount.UserName %>. The MyAccount class can also have methods like: MyAccount.Login() and so on.
Kind of primitive, but at least you can capsulate some code and hide it from the HTML.
My advice would be to carry on refactoring, classic ASP supports classes, so you should be able to move all everything but the display code into included ASP files which just contain classes.
See this article of details of moving from old fashioned asp towards ASP.NET
Refactoring ASP
Regarding a future direction, I wouldn't aim for ASP.NET web forms, instead I'd go for Microsoft's new MVC framework an add-on to of ASP.NET) It will be much simpler migrating to this from classic ASP.
I use ASPUnit for unit testing some of our classic ASP and find it to be helpful. It may be old, but so is ASP. It's simple, but it does work and you can customize or extend it if necessary.
I've also found Working Effectively with Legacy Code by Michael Feathers to be a helpful guide for finding ways to get some of that old code under test.
Include files can help as long as you keep it simple. At one point I tried creating an include for each class and that didn't work out too well. I like having a couple main includes with common business logic, and for complicated pages sometimes an include with logic for each of those pages. I suppose you could do MVC with a similar setup.
Is there any chance you could move from ASP to ASP.Net? Or are you looking at keeping it in classic ASP, but just cleaning it up. If at all possible, I would recommend moving as much as possible moving to .Net. It looks like you may be rewriting/reorganizing a lot of code anyway, so moving to .Net may not be a lot of extra effort.
Presumably someone else wrote most or all of the system that you're now maintaining. Look for the usual bad habits (repeated code, variables that are too widely scoped, nested if statements, etc.), and refactor as you would any other language. Keep an eye out for recurring things in the same file or different files and abstract them into functions.
If the code was written/maintained by various people, there might be some issues with inconsistent coding style. I find that bringing the code back into line makes it easier to see things that can be refactored.
"Thousands of lines long" makes me suspicious that there may also be situations where loosely-related things are being displayed on the same page. There again, you want to abstract them into separate subroutines.
Eventually you want to be writing objects to help encapsulate stuff like database connectivity, but it will be a while before you get there.
This is very old, but couldn't resist adding my two cents. If you must rewrite, and must continue to use classic ASP:
use JScript! much more powerful, you get inheritance, and there some good side benefits like using the same methods for server-side validation as you use for client-side
you can absolutely do MVC - I wrote an MVC framework, and it was not that many lines of code
you can also generate your model classes automatically with a bit of work. I have some code for this that worked quite well
make sure you are doing parameterized queries, and always returning disconnected recordsets
Software Development Project Management practices indicates that softwares like this are requiring to retire.
I know how hard it is to do the right thing, even more when the responsible manager knows sht and is scared of everything other than the wost way possible.
But still. It's necessary to start working on the development of a new software. It's simply impossible to maintain this one forever, and the loger they wait for retiring it the worse.
If you don't have proper specification/requirements documentation (I think no asp software in the world does, given the noobatry hability of those coders), you'll need both a group of users that know the software features and a manager to be responsible for validating the requirements. You'll need to review every feature and document its requirements.
During that process you'll go learning more about the software and its business. Once you have enough info, you can start developing a new one.