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My company is looking to move their software to an open source framework. Their first thought was J2EE. I know that Django and Rails are popular for recreational development, but not sure about them in a corporate setting.
I was looking to compile a list of possible web frameworks to consider. Unfortunately I am not able to release our requirements to the public. Also I would like to know if you have seen/used different frameworks in a corporate environment.
Thanks
I believe the more important question is what talents you got. If you have a primarily Java team, and you want to completely move to Ruby or Python, it's gonna be hard, if not impossible.
When deciding if X language/framework is good for a business, you have to consider opinions from your internal technical staff first. That normally sets you in a place with limited choices. Unless you are with a very small but highly talented/motivated team or planning to build a team with new hires.
Not sure what you mean by a corporate use, but we're using Django at a large media company for the websites of nearly 40 radio stations.
Another vote for Django. I'm not sure if the Washington Post or LA Times count as "corporate" but they have a lot more demands (both daily hits and time-to-new-feature) than your average "corporate" environment.
Struts, Stripes, Wicket, Spring MVC. I use Grails and love it.
You can go to Rails too. We use Rails successfully in a number of serious applications.
If you are just looking to save money from software, you can go to any J2EE frameworks out there. If you looking for some fun and rapid development, try Rails.
It all depends on the type of the project and the talent you have.
I use django in a real-time professional environment.
it's solid, and blazing fast (django on nginx/fastcgi, and soon couchdb too!)
We're using sinatra (ruby) for frontend to our main internal application. Simple, stable and flexible.
Struts2, Spring MVC, Stripes, Wicket, Grails, JSF, Seam, GWT, Flex, etc (Stripes and Grails being my favorite).
Matt Raible did interesting comparisons of (most of) them in this presentation which is an updated version of this old one.
Another interesting reading might be the What is the most commonly used Java web framework? question here on SO.
IMO, whatever you choose doesn't matter that much, the presentation layer will still be throw away code.
Any framework that keeps you away from the imperative languages (e.g. Java, C#, JSP with Java etc.) is better. Declarative/Functional/Data Flow languages (e.g. Ruby, XSLT, Python, etc.) result in solid implementations that save you support/enhancement $$$.
It sounds like the powers that be are comfortable with Java, but do yourself a favor and avoid J2EE. Go grab Restlet and Groovy, write a nice Rest back-end that not only serves as a programmatic API for your project, but will work nicely with any Ajax/Javascript library you choose to implement a UI in.
We are currently using Django and the web site is driving a lot of business to the company as well as growing by double digits since last year. It doesn't matter what kind of technology the corporation is using but what their business model is. What are you currently using in-house? It will make more sense to use a web framework related to your in-house code, knowledge and man power.
If nobody knows Rails or Django, you have to factor in the learning curve during the migration. It should only be a couple of weeks depending on the savviness of your developers. Then again if everyone hates or do not enjoy working with the in-house technology, trying a new one might be worth it.
"I know that Django and Rails are popular for recreational development (...)"
Rails:
http://basecamphq.com
http://highrisehq.com
Django:
http://www.lawrence.com/
http://www.everyblock.com/
They have high traffic and content-heavy services. I wouldn't call those guys business as "recreational development".
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I've just been redirected by a firend on the uniGUI website. In a previous question I asked about a comparison between Raudus and ExtPascal.
Now this unigui seems to be an alternative to Raudus, that moreover has the advantage of allowing you to compile the win32 exe at the same time with the same source code (of course if you limit yourself to use only uniGUI approved UI components).
I think this is amazing, even if this idea at a first sight willnot make happy all the web apps purists, but in my opionion having this kind of tool is great.
There are many (even small) applications, that can benefit for this code once, get a double UI.
Anyway which are your feelings about this? Do you think it has a future?
ADDITIONAL NOTE: In order not to start a general discussion please try to answer by mentioniong uniGUI specifically, not only a general answer. Thanks.
I started developing uniGUI (or whatever name it may adopt in future) around two years ago. Since then it has evolved a lot. Initial version was based on VCL for the Web. With addition of ExtPascal and Ext JS it has become a very advanced tool to develop Web apps based on Delphi.
uniGUI simply defines itself as a Web Application Development framework. The concept of Web Application has been controversial since its first inception. Some people claim that Web is stateless but applications are statefull, one should not mix these two. However, nowadays with an increasing demand for web applications such notions only remain as a philosophical point of view.
More and more people want to access their desktop apps from the internet. Companies want their local accounting software to be accessible to other branches. A security company wants a web gateway for their access control software. These are all examples for the increasing demand for web apps.
We can consider uniGUI as an abstraction layer for Delphi VCL controls which extends them to the Web. Like all other abstraction layers it helps developer to focus on application logic rather than the development tool itself. It tries to fully integrate the RAD approach into Delphi based Web development.
Dual nature of uniGUI is simply a plus. I'm referring to its ability to deploy same application to both web and desktop using same codebase. This feature maybe useful for some developers but useless for others and it can be completely ignored by those who focus on Web development only.
As for the scalability, the best target for uniGUI and other similar tools seems to be the intranet where the number of clients are predictable and connection speed is a non-issue.
That said, nothing prevents developers from developing web apps that target the internet. At end it is all Ext JS on the client side and Delphi event handlers on the server side. It all depends on how smart you design your app and how efficient you manage your resources. If each of your sessions consumes 10 MB of memory then you're likely to run out of memory very soon.
In conclusion, this framework will have a group of users which will find it best for their needs. There is no black or white here only big gray areas. Like any other tool it depends on the company, the particular project and the available deployment options to see if it is the right tool for you or not.
Web applications are very different from GUI ones. Mixing two approaches for something
more serious then simple form or several buttons I think is just wrong.
I think that the UniGUI idea is a great one. But I think that Embarcadero is the one that should offer that as one more option for developers instead of a independent one. Delphi developers always wanted an easy way to create web applications, and sincerely WebBroker is very poor.
Anyway which are your feelings about this? Do you think it has a future?
The general idea definitely has a future, if only in the PT Barnum sense. This particular implementation doesn't seem to be anything special - there's nothing in it that grabs me as being a great solution to any of the problems I currently have to deal with. But then, I see thick client apps, especially traditional Delphi 2 tier apps, as quite different from web apps.
I'd be more interested if uniGUI worked the other way, and provided a solid MVC framework for Delphi, then extended that to the web. That way you could more easily have your data + business logic + GUI in three connected pieces, rather than the traditional Delphi/RAD problem that business logic gets all tangled up in the GUI, then the web application is a pain to develop because the layers "have to be" separated. This smells like "solving" that problem by letting you leave the business logic mixed into the GUI when you move to the web.
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This is not a core programming problem as most posts on this website are, forgive me for that but I didn't know where else to ask this.
I am a beginner in web languages and want to build a small website for our family business, mostly a bunch of galleries that would display our different product lines with prices and some basic specs for customers to get an idea..currently I'm pursuing comp science at the undergrad level
So here is the problem, I can't decide between platforms
I started out with HTML and making a basic mock up but that didn't quite work out as i needed to have dynamic galleries that was quite hard to code by hand and since we need to update often it would be a pain even if I did manage to get it going
then I thought of Joomla as it would be easy to update but soon realized that its not that easy to customize templates
Then I started reading about Ruby on Rails and what it offers and it sounded really interesting might be useful in developing applications that we possibly would need in some time.
so I wanted to know from the community which course should one pursue: DHTML, Joomla, RoR
Please keep in mind that I want this to be a learning experience that will be useful possibly in the future in my professional career and at the same time get the job done.
I would also greatly appreciate any resources or suggestions that the community might have.
You are actually comparing apples to oranges here as DHTML, RoR, and Joomla are not the same thing. You are comparing a mark up language, to a programing framework, to a content management system. You could feasibly learn a CMS (Joomla, Drupal, Wordpress, etc) and never learn to code a single line of HTML or PHP.
For the purpose of getting a site that you can manage and edit yourself, then what you are asking is which CMS should you use. There are dozens of CMSes and opinions on which one is the best. In general are the big 3 - Wordpress, Joomla, and Drupal. Wordpress is by far the easiest to learn. It has a very simple admin that shouldn't take more than a few minutes to figure out. There are tons of themes and extensions that go along with it. The downside is that it's coded to be a blogging platform, not an extensible CMS. That means that doing things other than blogging are harder to accomplish (relative to Joomla and Drupal). It can still be done, but the more complex the site, the harder it is to do in Wordpress.
Joomla is the next step in ease of use. The admin is significantly more complex than WordPress, but a tech savvy user will get the basics down in the first couple of hours or so. Extendding Joomla is much easier for both the developer since the framework is specifically designed to be extended, and the user since installing is very quick and easy for most extensions. It's a pretty good balance between ease of use for the admin and ease of extension for the developer.
Drupal is probably the most powerful of the 3, but the trade off is in the user admin. Most non-developers will struggle to understand how the admin works or what taxonomy is and how it works. Again, the trade off is that it allows developers much more power in extending Drupal. Drupal makes it easier for the developer to accomplish much more complex tasks than Joomla or Wordpress.
At the end of the day, all 3 can accomplish the exact same thing on a website. You need to determine which one will accomplish your particular needs the best.
That said, you should still learn HTML and a programming language. My recommendation would be to learn PHP and mySQL. That will give you a solid foundation on which to build on once you are well versed. Other languages and flavors of SQL will come easier, plus many of the large open source projects are done in PHP/mySQL.
Since what you are trying to do is a pure learning exercise, I suggest you look around into a lot of things(rails/css/javascript/php etc) until you finally find the one that you will have fun playing-with. You learn faster when you can tinker with it.
Ruby on Rails may 'seem' easy to an advanced web developer. Its an advanced framework and needs considerable amount of investment in terms of time and interest and most importantly you need to have an aptitude for it. If you REALLY want to do this, and you have a general aptitude for Web programming, I suggest you start with Wordpress. Its search-engine friendly and will get you running in no time.
Learning we development and design is not a small task. It'll take you years to get even moderately good, so if you need to get something up and running now, I'd not recommend you to build it yourself.
There are a lot of nice Joomla templates and plugins available if you are ready to pay a small price for it. Search around a bit more, and you might find something that works for you.
I would start with a CMS such as Joomla or perhaps even Wordpress. Grab a template and tweak it - this will be a good introduction to coding websites as the really hard parts are already taken care of.
Once you have finished the site that you are working on then you can think about moving on to a framework such as Rails or even a PHP based once like Code Igniter. The frameworks will take a lot longer to figure out but at the end of the day they will give you a better learning experience then just tweaking a CMS template.
I would say it depends on your goal. As mentioned they have different purposes. That said I would say Joomla or Rails.
If you are interested in CMS (or design), and don't want/care about getting down and dirty into coding then I would use Joomla and learn what you need to acccomplish your goal.
If your goal is to be able to develop custom web APPLICATIONS, I would probably learn Rails. There is much more of a learning curve but you will get experience with things like html5, javascript (or coffeescript), css3 (or sass), exposure to the MVC model (model view controller) and exposure to Ruby.
But with Rails there is a lot more to learn, but you will have a lot of knowledge.
If you want to go down the rails path, maybe start with a Rails CMS (like locomotive or refinery) b/c they are written in Rails, you could look at the code or have some insight into the CMS. Disclaimer I have not used a Rails CMS (just did some research)
I would choose Joomla. They have a vast array of components and modules that should meet your needs. As far as customization, if you are a beginner this will be difficult no matter the platform. DHTML is not a platform. DHTML is mainly javascript, css and php. I suggest you get some books on doing dynamic stuff with javascript and jquery, styling with css and creating MVC sites with PHP. When you learn all this first your job customizing an whatever platform will be much much easier.
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I am still new to web framework and I am thinking of choosing either Ruby on Rails or Django. Which one should I go for as a beginner?
If you don't know either, you're maybe a little better off with Ruby on Rails...
If you are experienced with programming at all, try this: I have found that almost all of my developer colleagues decide on RoR or Django based on the language. Both are a quick pick-up, and more often than not, one of the two languages will just "speak" to you.
I'm somewhat OCD with my code (and life) and for me, Python was a better fit. I felt calm while writing it, and more importantly, calm while reading it. However, the guy that sits next to me - and I have a mountain of respect for - found Ruby to be more appealing.
So my suggestion? If you already know how to write code and the meaning of Object Oriented, spend a day with each language. Almost invariably, you'll respect one, and fall in love with the other.
THEN pick a framework :)
I have no experience in using RoR but 3 years of knowledge about Django. A very huge advantage of Django is its very good Documentation.
Especially for a beginner this might be the most important fact. Even most of the third party apps (pluggable modules/plugins) for django are document very good and are easy to use.
On the other hand Django code is in IMO more readable since its Python code - Ruby code tends to get messed up a bit faster.
I'll assuming you don't know Ruby or Python already, since that would be the number one determinate of which way to go. Having developed both Rails and Django projects, my take is that you probably can't go wrong with either, but my feeling is that Django is better oriented towards building sites for publishing, whereas Ruby is more oriented towards webapps. This is not to say that you can't build a great web app in Django build an awesome CMS in Rails, of course. But take a look at most of the high profile users of Django: NYTimes, The Guardian, Washington Post, LA Times, The Onion, AV Club, Everyblock. Those folks are more oriented towards publishing. Meanwhile, things like GitHub, BaseCamp and Twitter (partially) run Rails. So ask yourself what type of sites you are likely to be building and go from there. But really, like other posters have recommended, there's no reason no to spend a few days playing around with both and seeing what feels like a better fit.
Both are good. From experience, though, you'll get better and more up-to-date documentation most of the time for both Python and Django.
Both are GREAT!! by I prefer Rails because of:
MVC! Model View Controller.
The wide community of Rails.
Many big projects like Twitter, 37signals products are built on Ruby on Rails.
The BIG and the HUGE libraries and gems for Rails/Ruby.
and many other reasons. Well, you have to see this: Rails Django-Comparison and rails-vs-django
Amr
This is a little subjective since it can depend in no small part on your general programming background. Do you know Python? Do you know Ruby? In general, you're best off choosing the framework for a language you already know since then you're only learning one new thing instead of two.
If you don't know either, you're maybe a little better off with Ruby on Rails due to its greater mind-share in the general development community currently. This will make it easier to find help and example code online.
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This question is not about which is the best, it is about which makes the most business sense to use as a company's platform of choice for ongoing freelance development.
I'm currently trying to decide what framework to move my company in regarding frameworks for web application work.
Options are
ASP.NET MVC
Django
CakePHP/Symfony etc..
Struts
Pearl on Rails
Please feel free to add more to the discussion.
I currently work in ASP.NET MVC in my Spare time, and find it incredibly enjoyable to work with. It is my first experince with an MVC framework for the web, so I can't talk on the others.
The reason for not pushing this at the company is that I feel that there are not many developers in the Media/Marketing world who would work with this, so it may be hard to extend the team, or at least cost more.
I would like to move into learning and pushing Django, partly to learn python, partly to feel a bit cooler (all my geeky friends use Java/Python/c++). Microsoft is the dark side to most company's I work with (Marketing/Media focused). But again I'm worried about developers in this sector.
PHP seems like the natural choice, but I'm scared by the sheer amount of possible frameworks, and also that the quality of developer may be lower. I know there are great php developers out there, but how many of them know multiple frameworks? Are they similar enough that anyone decent at php can pick them up?
Just put struts in the list as an option, but personally I live with a Java developer, and considering my experience with c#, I'm just not that interested in learning Java (selfish personal geeky reasons)
Final option was a joke
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2007/11/perl_on_rails.shtml
As you said for the media/digital marketing sector php is the way to go.
I love .Net (it would be my first choice if the target market wasn't a factor).
I would really look for good well rounded developers regardless of their tech or market as opposed to ones with "media/digital marketing sector" experience.
It is possible to find good/experienced/reliable developers with knowledge of multiple frameworks. If this is a requirement, it is of course possible to vet candidates accordingly.
Given that you're referring to freelance development, it would probably make sense to add the dimension of "where the developer is based" into your thinking, as dealing with someone who's a stone throw's away compared to dealing with someone abroad or another city may affect how you work together. This means that where you are based also affects your choice: if you're based in a small town, there will be less quality canditates close to you with suitable skill sets.
I'm currently learning Symfony for myself, and work as a freelance advisor/product developer for a site that's built with CakePHP. Although an experienced PHP developer should be able to make the leap from one of the above to the other quite quickly, there's a fair amount of framework-specific intricacies that can only really be learnt by coming across the problem and then searching for the solution, or by being guided by someone who already knows. Symfony is considered to have good documentation, but I feel that there's a quite a lot in it that's also not in the documentation and that can really only be learnt by doing it.
I also worked for a company quite recently who used Symfony, hired high-quality PHP developers only, and if I recall correctly, it was about a month or two for new guys to get familiar with the code and the workings of Symfony, and start becoming properly productive.
Hope that helps.
In my (heavily biased) opinion, Django is gaining some traction in this sector. Off the top of my head I can think of a number of high-profile news organizations that are making significant use of Django and I've seen reports of organizations utilizing Django for putting up special one-off sites quickly for unique coverage of special events or circumstances. I know firsthand that PBS and National Geographic also use Django extensively for their web properties and I understand Discovey Channel does as well. There is a nice testimonial about how Michael Moore's site was rebuilt quickly using Django: http://blog.concentricsky.com/2009/10/michaelmoore/. I'm not sure if MSNBC has begun utilizing Django internally, but they did acquire Everyblock.
A few others I'm aware of that use Django heavily:
Mahalo
NASA
University of Texas
I've also seen that Django is being used by startups outside the media sector so I wouldn't say it is specialized toward a particular business sector. There are a lot of organizations out there that have been sort of silently using Python internally over the years and so Django is quickly becoming a natural option for web-based services. Python actually has decent roots in the scientific communities, financial sector, and I've spoken with a number of people in the entertainment industry who use Python in their digital effects / post production pipelines.
Maybe not the most riveting content overall, but there is some good info in here: http://djangocon.blip.tv/file/3041158
Look at your clients. Frameworks are just tools, you will have to go with the tool that suits the particular job. This also means your choice to dive into a framework will choose your future clients.
Many SMB shops need PHP because that it is the easiest to host and is interoperable on many layers of "platform" (not just OS, but also supports all DBs etc.)
ASP.NET MVC: I heard a lot of awesomeness about it, I like C# as well. But I can't afford to go only with the options Microsoft provides (database for example) and Microsoft products only really support they own stuff.
Django: Expected to gain huge momentum, but I'll wait until the language itself (syntax) becomes stable.
CakePHP/Symfony: CakePHP is very easy to pick up and is a good choice if it fits all the requirements.
Struts: Quite heavy, I would learn Spring (MVC) instead.
Pearl on Rails: Haven't really used/seen it, so no idea.
You could also consider to learn a framework that is radically different from you current knowledge.
So I love Symfony. It does all I need for a Framework to work fast and clean.
The structure and the architecture is pre-defined so everybody knows where to put stuff, so you can easily work together with a whole bunch of developers.
I would never chose CakePHP over Symfony, because if you have to make changes to a model, you can never again generate code after the development has started.
CakePHP just overwrites everything.
I sure lost all my code a few times. Really annoying.
Symfony just extends the generated code and that is where you develop.
Here you find a good discussion about CodeIgniter (with which I develop at the moment, and it is no MVC and PHP4-based) and Symfony: codeigniter-vs-symfony
The learning curve is a bit steeper for Symfony, but it has enough complexity for all situations I ever encountered.
My next project will again base on Symfony 1.4. And if you can wait, there will soon be Symfony 2.0
ASP.NET MVC, but only if you can use both a frontend and a backend developer for each project. It'll probably be harder to find developers with both competences and you might have to push .net-developers a bit to get them to use MVC.
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Now that Google allows Java on App Engine, I'm wondering what effect this has on a choice of web framework for App Engine.
I realize Google provides the webapp
framework which is pretty barebones.
And the .96 version of django that's
available for App Engine is
restrictive.
web2py burns up resources, from what I've heard.
Rails (now available) can't use
ActiveRecord, ActiveResource,
restclient, rmagick.
Is there something I'm missing - do any frameworks work well on App Engine?
Actually web2py is very light and since ~1.50 on GAE, it caches all bytecode compiled models/views/controllers.
Nevertheless you need to consider that by default is has datastore based sessions and this may add some overhead when compared with framework that do not have sessions working on GAE (at least not by default).
The web2py DAL itself does not add a significant overhead when compared to the naive Google datastore APIs.
Personally, I have found Python to be more fun. That's just me. However there are several commited Java developers out there that will appreciate the Java support in GAE. Furthermore, supporting Java was a good choice by Google since it will allow the GAE platform to potentially host many other languages. It's obviously a little early to expect all JVM based languages to run on GAE, but the future looks promising. For now we can look at what is and isn't working by taking a look at this GAE Java Group Page.
Coming back to Python, I think small web applications will work great with the built-in webapp framework. Other applications will benefit more from Django 1.0. Have a look at the GAE articles under the frameworks section for a few good reads on this. In any case, you will undoubtedly have restrictions in any of your choices since most web frameworks are designed with relational databases in mind ... which datastore/bigtable is not. Furthermore, the GAE platform has to be sandboxed for security reasons which also restrict you to some extent. Hope this helps.
Try Spring. It supports JPA and JDO.
There's even a Python version for Spring now.
I don't know exactly the full range of options, but I can tell you a couple of things off the bat...
Google Apps is built on top of / using Django.
Django is pretty much what Google Apps cheer and support, so I'd expect it to integrate with Google Apps better than others.
Google Apps has restrictions built into it that you cannot circumvent (or shouldn't). These limitations are not related to any particular framework, rather they are built into the fabric of Apps, so to speak.
I wouldn't worry much about performance of the framework - try to improve your design/structure, it will certainly payback better.
Google will eventually move to Django 1.0 and newer, plus they are updating Google Apps too.
They do use memcache (or an equivalent) so take that into consideration and utilize it.
It really depends on what you want to do. In my experience something small hand made on top of Webob is really good for an API. But for full fledged sites that need templates/sessions/complex routing/caching django is hard to beat.
Take into account that if you huge frameworks (like django 1.0) the first request always takes around 3 seconds to load everything in memory and keeps it there until 15 secs after that request.
And while you shop around for frameworks take into account that:
ORM's don't apply to the platform so basically don't matter.
Fast templates (like Cheetah) won't be fast (or even work) as they can't use c extensions.
Caching might be the most important thing to make everything fast.
If you are looking for Python, then Django would be your best bet.
Struts 2 is purported to work on Google App Engine (at least in terms of the example applications). Follow this thread:
http://www.nabble.com/Google-App-Engine-support--td22972179.html
It appears that there are some issues with Sitemesh in terms of templating, but if you're using JSP you should be ok.
It's a good choice as a web application framework goes.
I recommend web.py if you're using Python.
I use new framework GAE framework. This is similar with Django, but work on AppEngine.
Best regards!
For Python use webapp2 (comes bundled with app engine)
If you want to build large scale application and need more flexible framework, then you can take a look at Pyramid Python Framework. Previously it is called as Pylons. There are lot of good companies using this framework.