I'm a big fan of what ASP.NET MVC is doing, on many levels.
I'm about to take part in re-build of a very highly trafficked website, and I'm not which framework would be best (if any).
The site will need the following:
To support Javascript-heavy, highly interactive pages
But at the same time, provide underlying semantic HTML for search engines
Support multiple languages
Be skinnable
Expose a RESTful web-service API for partners
As far as I can tell, there's no reason not to use ASP.NET MVC for this.
I can present semantic HTML and layer Javascript on top using jQuery.
Multiple languages can be catered for using Resource files (same as at present).
Skinning can be done with CSS (it won't involve changes to the markup).
I can centralize business logic so that the Controllers and the WCF web-service use the same code.
But are there potential drawbacks to using MVC that I haven't considered?
I don't want to be the guy who picks a technology because it's cool but finds later down the track that it isn't very suitable for the job.
ASP.NET MVC is not good when all your doing is making a website that needs server-side code (but that's also true about ASP.NET also).
In your case I think MVC would be a great way to go. MVC has proven itself on high traffic websites (e.g. this one). However you must remember that MVC is new and changing. A library may not exists to do a specific task which means you'll have to write that code yourself.
Good luck on your rebuild!
You're good to go with MVC given what you've said about your project.
As far as I'm concerned, ASP.NET MVC is really only NOT good for situations where you have a large codebase in WebForms (meaning you have a lot of ASP.NET user controls, custom controls, etc). It's also not good if you are going to have people working on it who don't know what it's all about. Other than that, it's a pretty nice technology.
My two cents:
ASP.NET MVC is a great option but there is a little learning curve involved, so make sure your project plan/timeline has this handled. There might be developers on your team who might not be comfortable working with ASP.NET MVC, and this can cause possible delays (a lot of developers are still working in ASP.NET 1.1!).
#Alex: Lack of controls. Some features (like TreeView or Menu) are already implemented as Controls and it would be waste of time to reimplement them using mvc.
IMO the idea of using controls in ASP.NET MVC doesnt make much sense. You can create a treeview control using jQuery easily. Classic ASP.NET server controls carried a lot of baggage (viewstate etc) and hence ASP.NET MVC did not use any of those controls (though you can use helpers).
Finally, ASP.NET MVC is an alternative, not a replacement to Web Forms. I would not use ASP.NET MVC as it is still evolving, and my team is not very comfortable with it, but I guess slowly more and more programmers would shift to this (better) option.
I do not like ASP.NET MVC because of following reasons:
1.
Ugly routing API, there http://ayende.com/Blog/archive/2008/11/05/a-case-study-of-bad-api-design-asp.net-mvc-routing.aspx
is description of what is wrong.
By the way, friendly urls can be easily implemented without mvc
http://demo.liveui.net/bugtracker/Tasks/7
2.
Poor object model. It is proved that good software should consist of reusable components. There is nothing that can be reused in ASP.NET MVC based web site. For example, if you implemented smart drop down list once it will be difficult to use it again (even on the same web site).
3.
Lack of controls. Some features (like TreeView or Menu) are already implemented as Controls and it would be waste of time to reimplement them using mvc.
If I were you I would try to find some CMS and customize it for WebSite needs.
To responses:
YES. I know about ASP.NET controls disadvantages, but the question is about ASP.NET MVC. One can write a book about what is good and what is bad in ASP.NET but I do not think it is appropriate to discuss it here.
There are better ways of implementing MVC without using asp.net MVC. I have done it in the past, even before asp.net MVC came live. MVC is a pattern, not a technology, I do not understand why some people call it a Technology. You can separate all concerns by removing the code-behind from webforms and create your own controllers and routers and you will still have the advantage of the webform controls, etc to which most asp.net developers are used to use. asp.net mvc is nice for people whom do not really have the time to properly create an MVC app in a webforms environment and also to those whom do not have the time to architect a better solution. in conlcusion, asp.net mvc is good but there is a much better way of doing it and finally, MVC is NOT a technology.
Is there a realistic way to implement a webforms stylegridview in ASP.NET MVC, with inline editing?
I have found various solutions to get a grid with inline editing working in MVC using JQuery add-ins but so far they have been very messy, require an unrealistic amount of work and that all gets worse when you want to add client and server side validations.
I develop a lot of sites that have fairly extensive administration sections to them. So far I have spent longer doing one page with MVC (which still does not work) than I would have doing the whole administration section of a site. Grids with inline editing work really well for somethings, say maintaining a list of countries and marking some as active or inactive. I know I can easily make this open a "details/edit" page, or even handle it with an AJAX popup, but neither of these options provides as clean a user experience as inline editing for things this simple.
Has anyone found an easy way to achieve inline grid editing or do I need to go for a hybrid MVC / winforms site (which I really didn't want to do).
Thanks
Andrew
The Java Script Framework Ext JS has some good support for all different types of grids. This is something you could easily use with ASP .NET MVC, I'm sure there are some other solutions both client and server side out there as well.
I have had luck with incorporating Dynamic Data with ASP.NET MVC for just this very purpose. This hybrid solution can give you all the perceived benefits of a foward facing MVC site while giving you a quick and easy way to create CRUD functionality on all your data for admnistrative purposes. To be honest, if your user base isn't that large, designing the whole application in Dynamic Data is a legitimate option, especially once you get comfortable enough with it to use it past its basic "scaffolding" abilities.
As far as actually finding a packaged solution for providing ASP.NET GridView functionality in ASP.NET MVC, good luck. I have yet to find any solution that doesn't require some sort of melding with javscript frameworks or incomplete solutions like those offered by MVC Contrib. If you do find one, please let me know.
This is a difficult question to ask because it's so wide ranging.
Does anybody know of a scoring system of questions that would aid in choosing between a WebForms and MVC application at the start of a project?
e.g. Is TDD an important part of this project? (If yes score 1 for MVC and 0 for WebForms)
I would consider the following:
Current Skill Set of the team. If you have a large team that aren't going to pick up MVC quickly but are comfortable with Web Forms I'd stick with Web Forms
What level of control do you need? MVC gives you more control but that also means you'll be doing a lot of extra things your self. WebForms gives you a lot less control but there are a lot more things in the box. If being able to control the HTML output is important to you than maybe MVC is a better fit.
Will you need third party integration? There isn't a whole lot of 3rd party control support for MVC however there is a ton of support for webforms. Getting a nice grid in webforms is simple, however you'll be writing a lot of your own code in MVC to solve that problem
As you mentioned, is TDD desirable?
State management is a lot easier in web forms
I have a single question test (disclaimer: it's far from perfect, but does the job a lot of time in making you lean toward each of the technologies):
Is your application more form oriented (e.g. intranet stuff or something) or you are building an Internet-facing Web site (e.g. StackOverflow). In the first case, I'd probably go with Web forms. The latter case is probably better satisfied by ASP.NET MVC.
Another thing: these two are not the only paradigms out there. Before MVC days, I've done several projects by building HTTP Handlers that do the routing and other stuff that MVC does. You could also strip the Web form part of ASP.NET and just use non-server-form Web controls (while you'd do it in a standard Web forms project, I can hardly call this style ASP.NET Web forms).
Unless you are working on a very data centric app and need server controls with databinding and viewstate, I would go with MVC.
I haven't made anything serious in web form since MVC preview 2. MVC is much better with regard to design patterns and best practices.
And yes IMO TDD is very important and gives more than 1 point to MVC.
Usually, the decision to use WebForms or MVC boils down to controls. If you are going to be using a lot of server-side controls, then WebForms is for you. If you don't have that burden then MVC, at least in my opinion, is much cleaner, and more testable.
After using both of them the way I decide now is: Do I need to use server controls? If I don't then I default to MVC.
If you were stuck with WebForms for some reason then you could implement the MVP (Model-View-Presenter) pattern to separate the view from the logic and have some hope of unit-testing the codebehind.
I've noticed a lot of talk about asp.net MVC lately, but I haven't come across a clear or compelling description of when, where or why I would want to use it over WebForms.
Let's say I wanted to build a small web application that allows a person to advertise some items online. The website will have 4 use cases:
Search adverts
View listings
View item
Place an advert
Let's assume:
I'm not particularly interested in unit testing my controller. The page will either render the list of items correctly, or it won't.
I am interested in more control over the HTML markup.
I'm not interested in using the latest buzz technology just for the sake of it.
I am interested in using the tool that is best suited to the job in terms of productivity, performance, maintainability & simplicity of the end solution.
I don't want to have to work around a bunch of nuances to get something simple to work.
So, my questions are thus:
What are the fundamental differences between the two models?
In which scenario is one better than the other?
What are the gotchas with asp.net MVC (I'm aware of the gotchas with WebForms)
For our sample app, what would I gain by using asp.net MVC instead of WebForms?
For our sample app, what would I lose by using asp.net MVC instead of WebForms?
Is it feasible to mix and match models within the same small application?
Thanks to anyone who spends the time to contribute an answer.
What are the fundamental differences between the two models?
WebForms try to mimic WinForms development by allowing you to reuse lots of pre-made controls, and by faking web application state via the hidden _VIEWSTATE mechanism.
MVC is a pattern designed to help you separate your data (Model), business logic (Controller) and presentation (View). It adheres more to the true nature of the web : RESTful URLs, stateless.
In which scenario is one better than the other?
In my opinion, for an intranet application making heavy usage of controls, WebForms can be useful at reducing development time, because thanks to the designer you can create your UI very quickly and let the framework manage the app's state automatically.
For any other project, especially a public website, even a small one, I think MVC is the way to go.
What are the gotchas with asp.net MVC (I'm aware of the gotchas with
WebForms)
I'd say there is some learning curve to fully understand the MVC pattern and its power. Also, since the framework is still in BETA you can expect the API to experience some minor changes before release.
Since JavaScript is not hidden from you in MVC, it would also require some time to learn if you're not familiar with it. jQuery greatly simplifies this though.
For our sample app, what would I gain by using asp.net MVC instead of
WebForms?
You'd gain better control over HTML markup and Javascript behavior, a cleaner separation of concerns and some easily testable codebase (even if you don't seem interested in unit testing it).
For our sample app, what would I lose by using asp.net MVC instead of
WebForms?
You'd lose the 'drag and drop' quick way of building your pages and the application state management.
Is it feasible to mix and match models within the same small
application?
In some ways, yes it seems.
I'd recommend watching this talk by Phil Haack, who gives a good overview of the framework and invites Jeff Atwood to talk about how he built StackOverflow with it.
He explains how SO is using some WebForms controls for CAPTCHAs which render themselves into the view.
The primary difference is that MVC is more like "regular" web development that the rest of the programming world uses, whereas standard ASP.NET was designed to make it brain-dead easy for Windows developers to become web developers. I learned web programming by learning Ruby on Rails, and MVC seems like it is becoming the .NET version of Rails.
MVC is much more oriented around standards compliance, unobtrusive javascript, and separation of concerns than regular ASP.NET. You'll need to understand how HTML and CSS work together. You'll learn a LOT more javascript as you master MVC. One of the biggest advantages of MVC to me is that you can use jQuery to do some amazing AJAX stuff easier and BETTER than you can in regular ASP.NET.
If you're just now learning web development then I strongly encourage you to learn MVC. You'll be able to transfer at least some of your new skills to other frameworks in the future.
If you're looking for which to learn to quickly get a web development job, then I'll have to strongly suggest ASP.NET.
Once MVC is RTM'd I think we will see a slow and steady adoption curve and as it matures MVC may become the primary framework for creating websites with ASP.NET. I hope so at least!
The biggest difference between ASPNET MVC and is WebForms is the lifecycle of an page, no difficult(unnecessary) postbacks, clean coding, enz.
There are no rules for that
???
REST-full website, Separation of logic
Design-time support, can't use third-party webcontrols
Please don't mix it together. If you really want to use the WebForms model you could use the MVP pattern, Billy McCafferty wrote exellent articles on that design pattern
I'm redesigning some of my applications from the MVP-pattern to MVC-pattern, not because MVC is better but I would like to use the newest techniques offered by MS(pattern itself is quite old).
I just listened to the StackOverflow team's 17th podcast, and they talked so highly of ASP.NET MVC that I decided to check it out.
But first, I want to be sure it's worth it. I already created a base web application (for other developers to build on) for a project that's starting in a few days and wanted to know, based on your experience, if I should take the time to learn the basics of MVC and re-create the base web application with this model.
Are there really big pros that'd make it worthwhile?
EDIT: It's not an existing project, it's a project about to start, so if I'm going to do it it should be now...
I just found this
It does not, however, use the existing post-back model for interactions back to the server. Instead, you'll route all end-user interactions to a Controller class instead - which helps ensure clean separation of concerns and testability (it also means no viewstate or page lifecycle with MVC based views).
How would that work? No viewstate? No events?
If you are quite happy with WebForms today, then maybe ASP.NET MVC isn't for you.
I have been frustrated with WebForms for a really long time. I'm definitely not alone here. The smart-client, stateful abstraction over the web breaks down severely in complex scenarios. I happen to love HTML, Javascript, and CSS. WebForms tries to hide that from me. It also has some really complex solutions to problems that are really not that complex. Webforms is also inherently difficult to test, and while you can use MVP, it's not a great solution for a web environment...(compared to MVC).
MVC will appeal to you if...
- you want more control over your HTML
- want a seamless ajax experience like every other platform has
- want testability through-and-through
- want meaningful URLs
- HATE dealing with postback & viewstate issues
And as for the framework being Preview 5, it is quite stable, the design is mostly there, and upgrading is not difficult. I started an app on Preview 1 and have upgraded within a few hours of the newest preview being available.
It's important to keep in mind that MVC and WebForms are not competing, and one is not better than the other. They are simply different tools. Most people seem to approach MVC vs WebForms as "one must be a better hammer than the other". That is wrong. One is a hammer, the other is a screwdriver. Both are used in the process of putting things together, but have different strengths and weaknesses.
If one left you with a bad taste, you were probably trying to use a screwdriver to pound a nail. Certain problems are cumbersome with WebForms that become elegant and simple with MVC, and vice-versa.
I have used ASP.NET MVC (I even wrote a HTTPModule that lets you define the routes in web.config), and I still get a bitter taste in my mouth about it.
It seems like a giant step backwards in organization and productivity. Maybe its not for some, but I've got webforms figured out, and they present no challenge to me as far as making them maintainable.
That, and I don't endorse the current "TEST EVERYTHING" fad...
ASP.NET MVC basically allows you to separate the responsibility of different sections of the code. This enable you to test your application. You can test your Views, Routes etc. It also does speed up the application since now there is no ViewState or Postback.
BUT, there are also disadvantages. Since, you are no using WebForms you cannot use any ASP.NET control. It means if you want to create a GridView you will be running a for loop and create the table manually. If you want to use the ASP.NET Wizard in MVC then you will have to create on your own.
It is a nice framework if you are sick and tired of ASP.NET webform and want to perform everything on your own. But you need to keep in mind that would you benefit from creating all the stuff again or not?
In general I prefer Webforms framework due to the rich suite of controls and the automatic plumbing.
I would create a test site first, and see what the team thinks, but for me I wouldn't go back to WebForms after using MVC.
Some people don't like code mixed with HTML, and I can understand that, but I far prefer the flexibility over things like Page Lifecycle, rendering HTML and biggy for me - no viewstate cruft embedded in the page source.
Some people prefer MVC for better testibility, but personally most of my code is in the middle layer and easily tested anyway...
#Juan Manuel Did you ever work in classic ASP? When you had to program all of your own events and "viewstatish" items (like a dropdown recalling its selected value after form submission)?
If so, then ASP.NET MVC will not feel that awkward off the bat. I would check out Rob Conery's Awesome Series "MVC Storefront" where he has been walking through the framework and building each expected component for a storefront site. It's really impressive and easy to follow along (catching up is tough because Rob has been reall active and posted A LOT in that series).
Personally, and quite contrary to Jeff Atwood's feelings on the topic, I rather liked the webform model. It was totally different than the vbscript/classic ASP days for sure but keeping viewstate in check and writing your own CSS friendly controls was enjoyable, actually.
Then again, note that I said "liked". ASP.NET MVC is really awesome and more alike other web technologies out there. It certainly is easier to shift from ASP.NET MVC to RAILS if you like to or need to work on multiple platforms. And while, yes, it is very stable obviously (this very site), if your company disallows "beta" software of any color; implementing it into production at the this time might be an issue.
#Jonathan Holland I saw that you were voted down, but that is a VERY VALID point. I have been reading some posts around the intertubes where people seem to be confusing ASP.NET MVC the framework and MVC the pattern.
MVC in of itself is a DESIGN PATTERN. If all you are looking for is a "separation of concerns" then you can certainly achieve that with webforms. Personally, I am a big fan of the MVP pattern in a standard n-tier environment.
If you really want TOTAL control of your mark-up in the ASP.NET world, then MVC the ramework is for you.
If you are a professional ASP.NET developer, and have some time to spare on learning new stuff, I would certainly recommend that you spend some time trying out ASP.NET MVC. It may not be the solution to all your problems, and there are lots of projects that may benefit more from a traditional webform implementation, but while trying to figure out MVC you will certainly learn a lot, and it might bring up lots of ideas that you can apply on your job.
One good thing that I noticed while going through many blog posts and video tutorials while trying to develop a MVC pet-project is that most of them follow the current best practices (TDD, IoC, Dependency Injection, and to a lower extent POCO), plus a lot of JQuery to make the experience more interesting for the user, and that is stuff that I can apply on my current webform apps, and that I wasn't exposed in such depth before.
The ASP.NET MVC way of doing things is so different from webforms that it will shake up a bit your mind, and that for a developer is very good!
OTOH for a total beginner to web development I think MVC is definitely a better start because it offers a good design pattern out of the box and is closer to the way that the web really works (HTML is stateless, after all). On MVC you decide on every byte that goes back and forth on the wire (at least while you don't go crazy on html helpers). Once the guy gets that, he or she will be better equipped to move to the "artificial" facilities provided by ASP.NET webforms and server controls.
If you like to use server controls which do a lot of work for you, you will NOT like MVC because you will need to do a lot of hand coding in MVC. If you like the GridView, expect to write one yourself or use someone else's.
MVC is not for everyone, specially if you're not into unit testing the GUI part. If you're comfortable with web forms, stay with it. Web Forms 4.0 will fix some of the current shortcomings like the ID's which are automatically assigned by ASP.NET. You will have control of these in the next version.
Unless the developers you are working with are familiar with MVC pattern I wouldn't. At a minimum I'd talk with them first before making such a big change.
I'm trying to make that same decision about ASP.NET MVC, Juan Manuel. I'm now waiting for the right bite-sized project to come along with which I can experiment. If the experiment goes well--my gut says it will--then I'm going to architect my new large projects around the framework.
With ASP.NET MVC you lose the viewstate/postback model of ASP.NET Web Forms. Without that abstraction, you work much more closely with the HTML and the HTTP POST and GET commands. I believe the UI programming is somewhat in the direction of classic ASP.
With that inconvenience, comes a greater degree of control. I've very often found myself fighting the psuedo-session garbage of ASP.NET and the prospect of regaining complete control of the output HTML seems very refreshing.
It's perhaps either the best--or the worst--of both worlds.
5 Reasons You Should Take a Closer Look at ASP.NET MVC
I dont´t know ASP.NET MVC, but I am very familiar with MVC pattern. I don´t see another way to build professional applications without MVC. And it has to be MVC model 2, like Spring or Struts. By the way, how you people were building web applications without MVC? When you have a situation that some kind of validation is necessary on every request, as validating if user is authenticated, what is your solution? Some kind of include(validate.aspx) in every page?
Have you never heard of N-Tier development?
Ajax, RAD (webforms with ajax are anti-RAD very often), COMPLETE CONTROL (without developing whole bunch of code and cycles). webforms are good only to bind some grid and such and not for anything else, and one more really important thing - performance. when u get stuck into the web forms hell u will switch on MVC sooner or later.
I wouldn't recommend just making the switch on an existing project. Perhaps start a small "demo" project that the team can use to experiment with the technology and (if necessary) learn what they need to and demonstrate to management that it is worthwhile to make the switch. In the end, even the dev team might realize they aren't ready or it's not worth it.
Whatever you do, be sure to document it. Perhaps if you use a demo project, write a postmortem for future reference.
I dont´t know ASP.NET MVC, but I am very familiar with MVC pattern. I don´t see another way to build professional applications without MVC. And it has to be MVC model 2, like Spring or Struts. By the way, how you people were building web applications without MVC? When you have a situation that some kind of validation is necessary on every request, as validating if user is authenticated, what is your solution? Some kind of include(validate.aspx) in every page?
No, you shouldn't. Feel free to try it out on a new project, but a lot of people familiar with ASP.NET webforms aren't loving it yet, due to having to muck around with raw HTML + lots of different concepts + pretty slim pickings on documentation/tutorials.
Is the fact that ASP.net MVC is only in 'Preview 5' be a cause for concern when looking into it?
I know that StackOverflow was created using it, but is there a chance that Microsoft could implement significant changes to the framework before it is officially out of beta/alpha/preview release?
If you are dead set on using an MVC framework, then I would rather set out to use Castle project's one...
When that's said I personally think WebControls have a lot of advantages, like for instance being able to create event driven applications which have a stateful client and so on. Most of the arguments against WebControls are constructed because of lack of understanding the WebControl model etc. And not because they actually are truly bad...
MVC is not a Silver Bullet, especially not Microsoft MVC...
I have seen some implementation of MVC framework where for the sake of testability, someone rendered the whole HTML in code. In this case the view is also a testable code. But I said, my friend, putting HTML in code is a maintenance nightmare and he said well I like everything compiled and tested. I didn't argue, but later found that he did put this HTML into resource files and the craziness continued...
Little did he realized that the whole idea of separating View also solved the maintenance part. It outweighs the testability in some applications. We do not need to test the HTML design if we are using WYSWYG tool. WebForms are good for that reason.
I have often seen people abusing postback and viewstate and blaming it on the ASP .NET model.
Remember the best webpages are still the .HTMLs and that's where is the Power of ASP .NET MVC.