I am sorry for possible misleading about the title, but I have no idea for a proper title.
Feel free to edit.
Anyway, I am using ASP.NET Web Forms, and maybe this isn't how web forms is intended to be used, but I like to construct and populate HTML elements manually. It gives me more control.
I don't use DataBinding and that kind of stuff. I use SqlConnection, SqlCommand and SqlDataReader, set SQL string etc. and read the data from the DataReader.
Old school if you like. :)
I do create WebControls so that I don't have to copy-paste every time I need some control, but mostly, I need WebControls to render as HTML so I can append that HTML into some other function that renders the final output with the control inside.
I know I can render a control with control.RenderControl(writer), but this can only be done in (pre)Render or RenderContents overrides.
For example.
I have a dal.cs file where is stored all static functions and voids that communicate with the database.
Functions mostly return string so that it can be appended into some other function to render the final result.
The reason I am doing like this is that I want to separate the coding from the HTML as much as I can so that I don't do <% while (dataReader.Read()) %> in HTML and display the data. I moved this into a CodeBehind.
I also use this functions to render in the HttpHandler for AJAX response.
That works perfectly, but when I want to add a control (ASP.NET Server control (.cs extension, not .ascx)) I don't know how to do that, so I see my self writing the same control as function that returns string or another function inside that control that returns string and replaces a job that would RenderContents do, so that I can call that function when I need control to be appended into a another string.
I know this may not be a very good practice.
As I see all the tutorials/videos about the ASP.NET MVC, I think it suite my needs as with the MVC you have to construct everything (or most of it) by your self, which I am already doing right now with web forms.
After this long intro, I want to ask how can I build my controls so I can use them as I mentioned (return string) or I have to forget about server controls and build the controls as functions and used them that way?
Is that even possible with ASP.NET Server Controls (.cs extension) or am I right when I said that I am not using it right.
To be clear, I am talking about how to properly use a web forms, but to avoid data binders because I want to construct everything by my self (render HTML in Code Behind).
Someone might think that I am appending strings like "some " + "string", which I am not. I am using StringBuilder for that so there's no slowness.
Every opinion is welcome.
You need to stop thinking in terms of "controls" and webforms. MVC is a completely different way of constructing applications.
I also hate the automatic renderers in WebForms, they produce horrible html that never makes any sense. However, you dont want to be writing your html in your codebehind and passing it around as strings, thats just nasty. Your presentation code is mixed in with your logic, AND youre writing HTML in c# strings!!!
So, MVC... Instead of "widgets" that do interacty things with codebehinds and postbacks, yours view ONLY display data and contain forms to allow you to post to the controllers.
Because of this, you can strongly type your views to a Type, and then access the data you pass to it from a controller via the Model property. The equivalent to UserControls are Partial Views (ViewUserControl) which can be used to modularise your rendering code for types. For example, you might make an Address partial to which you pass your Person's Address property every time you need it rendered. This way you aren't repeating html all over the place.
P.S. A single file for all your DAL?
I hope I never ever have to work on an app you wrote in this manner. If your application is string-heavy then something is wrong.
Agree with #sliderhouserules, the way you are using MVC framework is awful. You must forgot all your "old school" techniques.
You should never use SqlCommands, SqlReaders, etc. in the code of the pages. You should pass to the view only a model (e.g. View(bar)) and it will be better if you avoid usage of
ViewData["some magic string"] = bar
Every time when you will use "old school" technique 2 mans and 2 cats will be killed :).
Also it's better to use some ORM (Object-Relational Mapper) like Linq2sql, NHibernate, SubSonic, etc.
If you need in samples of good application design please look at SharpArchitecture. It has a very good architecture and implementation and may help a lot. It has one sample (with Northwind db) and one more sample will be added soon.
Also look at CodeCampServer. It has very good architecture too.
It's better to look at the code of these projects instead of looking videos because existing videos can't demonstrate good sample of architecture, just a simple usage of functionality.
About server controls, you may use them if they can be used without 'runat="server"', like PlaceHolder. And you may create them too, but you shouldn't load any data in them directly. If you don't want to copy-paste html you should review your code and you should refactor it. Every duplicated code should be moved to MasterPages of UserControls (ascx ones).
And once more, please spend some time to look at these samples. You'll save your nerves and time in the future when you'll need to update the app or fix something. At the first look they can be hard to understand but this is only at the first look.
Hope this helps.
#lopkiju, I think that the MVC pattern would serve you much better than your current WebForms solution if you want that much control over the output HTML.
You can use Web Forms this way as you already do, but it is not designed to be used this way, so it will be a pain.
More detail
In my opinion, read some articles about the Separation of Concerns (also known as SoC) principle. If you apply it correctly, it can save you many-many headaches when you'll debug your app, and also for those people who you work with (eg. those who may have to read or modify your source code).
My other tip for you is this:
You are right that you shouldn't do things like <% while (dataReader.Read()) %> in your View code. But perhaps there are better ways to make it more elegant than your current way.
I think you should consider using some sort of ORM for these purposes. (LINQ to SQL, or even NHibernate.) If you get it, it will be much simpler. So much that you may not want to use DataReaders directly again. :-)
What I recommend for you
Simply, read the NerdDinner tutorial, and build the samle app by yourself step-by-step.
After that, try to build a similar app that serves a different purpose by yourself while applying the same rules and design that you applied to the tutorial.
I'm pretty sure you have the expertise to do it, and after actually doing something with it, you can pretty much get the feel of it.
The tutorial also explains and includes the principles I mentioned above, which will be very much use to you.
If you want the ASP.NET MVC path, you can set up controls as ASCX and they will simply be tags filled by the controller. It may not be old school enough for you, however.
You can create your full UI in code behind, if you so desire. This can include creating the HTML in routines.
But, I would recommend, if you are sticking with ASP.NET, reconsidering the bind model over the DataReader.Read() and output + loop. It is not only old style, it is highly inefficient and hard to maintain.
ASP.NET MVC does create a much looser ASPX, as it is just a view. And there is a much greater separation of code and UI. But it will not fit with the old school model either.
Have you considered using micro-templates? Dave Ward has a good example of of a client side data repeater that is uses micro-templates for layout after making a call to a page method. This sounds like this is more in the spirit of what you are trying to accomplish and can still be integrated nicely with WebForms.
The side effect will be that you will not rely on passing around HTML and can isolate your presentation from your logic.
Related
Just to prefix this question, I've decided to take a look at moving our works old legacy systems (40+ programs from vb6, vba, vb.net to c#.net) into two separate systems using the same DAL (barcoding terminals and one web based system) as I spend most my day fixing crummy or non existant business logic in 15 year old vba programs. I've recently built an entity framework model complete with fluent validation and couldn't be happier with it after using it for a bit.
The small team is familiar with webforms (but not very) but the last few days I've explored MVC Razor. I was loving MVC Framework until I tried to start trying to add more functions onto the same page and then it seemed arbitrarily hard to replicate our a recent system I put in a webform. Before, I would eager load a customer and all it's child entities and then bind that to single page for the customer so they could access everything (which is what they wanted), it works okay and isn't slow. From this single page I could edit all their account details/contacts/emails/phones/jobs.
All the examples I've done and seen in MVC handle a single update, a single edit etc but surely you can't separate out every single action into a new view/page? I can pass a rich model through to the view in MVC, but then its a pain trying to update all the different child entities.
This is probably the exact design that MVC wasn't designed for maybe, which is okay, I'm willing to adapt it if MVC will be a better platform going forward, but how are you meant to handle adding this complexity in? Some methods I've seen:
Lots of partial views? passing child info to them (or the id and lazy loading it)?
I've seen methods that wrap multiple <forms> around everything and handle actions that way.
Separate pretty much every task out
If the solution is more lightweight and easier to maintain I'll go research whatever I need to I just wanted at an earlier stage to see if I'm wasting my time. Any pointers to the correct questions I should be asking would be greatly appreciated.
ASP.NET MVC is neither more or less better equipped to deal with complex pages than any other technology out there.
Certainly, MVC requires more low-level work than a Web Forms app, with no direct binding support, but in most cases this is a good thing and provides much more flexibility in how your page is rendered.
One of the whole ideas of MVC is to give you more control over things, but that control leads to requiring more knowledge and more effort on your part in most non-trivial cases. MVC provides a number of tooling functions to speed up trivial work (like creating standard table based CRUD) but when you have complex models, you will have to do much of the work yourself.
This is not that MVC is "ill suited" for it, but just that control and flexibility has a trade off with more responsibility on your part.
In your case, you simply create a view model with all the fields you want. Then, you create your form to edit those fields. In your controller, you will need to unflatten that view model and create or update the necessary records in the database. It's not difficult, but it's more work than WebForms databinding.
You could look into more advanced tools (commercial) for MVC, such as Telerik's tools, which have developed more of a databinding like interface, but MVC is not a drag-n-drop technology, and requires you to hook things up and write the various logic for what is done.
If you need drag-n-drop, databound functionality, then no.. MVC is not the correct technology. But then WebForms requires you to accept many compromises as well, and ties your hands in many ways.
You could use partial views, however I seldom use them. I prefer to instead use Editor/DisplayTemplates as these take care of naming your form fields correctly, even for collections and complex objects. PartialViews tend to have lots of gotchas if you aren't careful. I pretty much only use them as fancy includes, or when using Ajax.
I'm not sure what you meay by "wrap multiple <forms> around everything`. You cannot nest forms in HTML, it's not legal. If you mean place a form around each row of a table, that isn't valid html either in most cases (it's not legal to put a form in a between the table and the tr).
It would help if you had a specific problem that you could ask about, vague objections don't help us solve your issue.
You can accomplish anything in MVC that you can in WebForms. The difference is MVC will usually require you to write more code as it doesn't really offer you any "controls" to drop on your page.
In WebForms, it's easy to create a master/detail view with a GridView, FormView and then wrap everything in an UpdatePanel for automagical AJAX support.
In MVC, while you do have helpers like the WebGrid and AjaxHelpers extension methods, creating views and/or pages requires more understanding of how things work to get the desired functionality. When I start a new MVC project, here's what I include:
Backbone.js - client-side "ORM" that performs CRUD operations
against RESTful* APIs
Knockout.js - client-side view models and
real-time data-binding for your views
Knockback.js - wraps
Backbone models in Knockout view models
Using these three frameworks, you can quickly create powerful single-page apps using MVC and WebAPI.
I'm learning MVC to develop a website, and I'm finding confusing the (apparent?) differences from the "theory" and the current widespread implementations.
In the original and Martin Fowler's article the MVC concept seems to favor a "smart" View, which interacts directly with the Model to retrieve the data to display, and decides by itself how should the data be presented. On the web, that should be the output format (HTML, JSON, PDF, etc).
On the other hand, the View in current frameworks like ASP.NET and Zend seems to be little more than an HTML template.
This to me raises a question: I can create a View for each format, but then where should I in these frameworks decide what View to display? Should the controller decide which View to load? But then, is it the controller's responsibility to know the right format to display? That seems to be against the theory.
What is your experience when using MVC and you need to output different formats?
I think you're missing the fact that the Views in current frameworks do a lot of the work to communicate with the model to retrieve the data to display, and which are fundamentally modally locked (i.e., the HTML View fundamentally displays HTML, etc.). The concept of a "smart view" which determines how to display the data is a little bit muddled, as well; for example, in ASP.NET MVC, the Views will actually render your HTML differently based upon what browser the user is using, so there's a bit of that, but they don't go so far as to completely change the mode in which the data is presented (visual vs. auditory, for example).
My experience with a true MVC is limited to the Zend Framework and I'm still pretty green. But this is my opinion(for what its worth):
In Fowler's article, he describes an MVC where where the C and V are completely unaware of each other. It is widely excepted that the C and V can interact. See Dean Helman's explanation and ZF's explanation.
It has been my experience that the controller can tell the view, for example: "I want this data as JSON" or "Add this data to the navigation" or "Here is the data, I don't care what you do with it."
EDIT: I think you may be confusing MVC
with MVP. See
What are MVP and MVC and what is the difference?
There is whitespace which joins M, V and C and this is also very important.
What's this V is for? Are view helpers that access models M or V? Are layouts or placeholders too?
There is no strict definition, and nobody expects strict one. It's all about the separation, and it may vary how strict it is.
As Fatmuemoo noticed it may be you confusing, or maybe the frameworks or Fowler is.
What's the difference is one makes controller decide, other one view helper do. But the real thing is the request decides. You may process it before rendering the view or after, depending what do you want to do, and it is still MVC.
Is it considered a bad practice to use code-behind with ASP.NET MVC Views? Got into a bit of a debate about this with my colleagues today and I was wondering the community's thoughts.
Obviously, this isn't an option when using another MVC like Rails, which makes me think it's relied on more as a crutch for those accustom to working with traditional ASP.NET Web Forms applications.
I would say that it's a bad practice to use code-behinds with ASP.NET MVC. MVC allows separation of concern where presentation logic (in Views) are separated from application logic (in Controllers). Using code-behinds will mix presentation logic and application logic inside the code-behinds, whereby defeating some of the benefits of MVC.
Certainly the authors of ASP.NET MVC In Action advise against it, and I agree. It isn't necessary, so why do it? In the early betas a code-behind file was included, but this was removed at RTM (or shortly before).
Typically, it simply encourages you to do more non-view work than you should in the view, as it is out of sight / out of mind.
I used code-behind extensively on my first ASP.NET MVC (Preview 3!) project - primarily for doing stuff like casting ViewData["foo"] into strongly-typed data objects, gathering view data into IEnumerables so I could loop across it, that kind of thing.
With the introduction of strongly-typed views, and pragmatic use of the (horrifically-named) Model-View-ViewModel pattern, I haven't missed code-behind at all since it was removed from the project framework just before the final release.
I now strongly feel that whatever processing you're doing in your view's code-behind, you are far better off modelling the result of that processing in your ViewModel, allowing the controller to perform the actual processing, and keep the view as simple and lightweight as you can. That'll let you test the processing logic, it makes the views easier to modify, and creates - I think - a much more elegant separation between transforming your data for display, and actually displaying it.
Yes the codebehind has long been the secret hiding place of business logic which as we all know should not be at the View level.
Code behind has been removed to stop naughty developers from being tempted.
I would recommend avoiding the codebehind in an MVC app at all costs. Using the code behind negates some of the values you get by using the MVC Framework such as separation of concerns, etc. You want to have your data access, business rules, type conversion and that sort of thing applied in the Model. If you find you need to convert your data types like Dylan mentioned, you may want to make ViewModels. The ViewModel would basically be the data from the actual Model you would like to display, in the format you wish to display it in.
Its probably best to avoid putting anything in the code behind when using MVC.
I would be interested to hear which part was being debated about, to go in the codebehind?
If you new to Asp.Net MVC, I really recommend spending some time going through the Nerd dinner example. There's a free EBook and source available here http://nerddinner.codeplex.com/.
Creating the simple demo from scratch is a great way to learn.
After doing this, it may shed some light on where the code you have in the codebehind, could alternatively go.
Note: If you do follow the EBook, grab the latest site.css file from codeplex, otherwise the virtual earth maps won't be aligned properly.
HTH
Ralph
It should be noted that "Code Behind" is a feature of the Web Forms view engine. It really has nothing to do with ASP.NET MVC itself.
For example, the Razor view engine in MVC3 does not even support it.
I would answer your question this way: If you cannot switch view engines without rewriting your controllers (or even your models) then you are not using the MVC pattern correctly.
Probably most of what you are doing in the .aspx.cs file should really be done before the model (or View Model) gets passed to the view. That said, in projects that I have migrated from ASP.NET Web Forms to ASP.NET MVC, I left a lot of the Code Behind in place. For example, I find it cleaner and more pleasing to use a Repeater control than to try to use a 'for' loop in Web Forms. I am still just iterating over View Model data after all. So why not? Separation of concerns is preserved (perhaps to a greater degree in fact).
I mean, why should "best practice" for Web Forms suddenly be the wrong way to do a Web Forms View? As a simple example, consider a Repeater that assigns a different CSS class to every second row of a table. Why should my controller (or even my model) care? Trying to put this kind of logic inline in Web Forms quickly devolves into tag soup and complete spaghetti. Now imagine something more complicated.
I have left Master pages in place that build the menus in the code behind. Again, all data comes from the View Model. I do not see why using GridView or other controls in this way should be a problem either.
I usually disabled ViewState in Web Forms anyway and did the data binding in "Init". Still, there would often be a small ViewState that I could not get rid of. I put some code in "Render" that moves this to after the form (it defaults to before). When moving to MVC, I sometimes left this code in. So, I have ASP.MVC sites that do indeed use Code Behind. I am just careful that it code that is specific to the view.
On new projects, I generally have found less of a need for Code Behind on most pages. Thankfully, view engines like Razor have made mixing code and mark-up in-line a lot less painful to write, read, and maintain.
Which way do you prefer to create your forms in MVC?
<% Html.Form() { %>
<% } %>
Or
<form action="<%= Url.Action("ManageImage", "UserAccount") %>" method="post">
</form>
I understand that Html.Form() as of PR5 now just uses the URL provided by the request. However something about that doesn't sit well with me, especially since I will be getting all the baggage of any querystrings that are included.
What is your take?
The second way, definitely. The first way is programmer-centric, which is not what the V part of MVC is about. The second way is more designer centric, only binding to the model where it is necessary, leaving the HTML as natural as possible.
On the whole, I think I'm kinda old-school as I prefer to roll my own HTML elements.
I also prefer a view engine like like NHaml, which makes writing HTML almost an order of magnitude simpler.
I have to agree with both of you, I am not really like this simplistic WebForms style that seems to be integrating its way in to MVC. This stuff almost seems like it should be a 3rd party library or at the very least an extensions library that can be included if needed or wanted.
I am totally in the opinion of old school HTML, that is what designers use. I don't like to include to much code centric syntax for this reason. I treat the web form view engine like a third party library, because I replaced it with a different view engine. If you do not like the way the web form view model works or the direction it is going, you can always go a different route. That is one of the main reasons I love ASP.NET MVC.
I agree with Andrew Peters, DRY. It should also be pointed out that you can specify your controller, action, and params to the .Form() helper and if they fit into your routing rules then no query string parameters will be used.
I also understand what Will was saying about the V in MVC. In my opinion I do not think it is a problem to put code in the view as long as it is for the view. It is really easy to cross the line between controller and view if you are not careful. Personally I can not stand to use C# as a template engine without my eyes bleeding or getting the urge to murder someone. This helps me keep my logic separated, controller logic in C#, view logic in brail.
The reason for using helpers is that they allow you to encapsulate common patterns in a consistent and DRY fashion. Think of them as a way of refactoring views to remove duplication just as you would with regular code.
For example, I blogged about some RESTful NHaml helpers that can build urls based on a model.
What is the purpose of the code behind view file in ASP.NET MVC besides setting of the generic parameter of ViewPage ?
Here's my list of reasons why code-behind can be useful taken from my own post. I'm sure there are many more.
Databinding legacy ASP.NET controls - if an alternative is not available or a temporary solution is needed.
View logic that requires recursion to create some kind of nested or hierarchical HTML.
View logic that uses temporary variables. I refuse to define local variables in my tag soup! I'd want them as properties on the view class at the very least.
Logic that is specific only to one view or model and does not belong to an HtmlHelper. As a side note I don't think an HtmlHelper should know about any 'Model' classes. Its fine if it knows about the classes defined inside a model (such as IEnumerable, but I dont think for instance you should ever have an HtmlHelper that takes a ProductModel.
HtmlHelper methods end up becoming visible from ALL your views when you type Html+dot and i really want to minimize this list as much as possible.
What if I want to write code that uses HtmlGenericControl and other classes in that namespace to generate my HTML in an object oriented way (or I have existing code that does that that I want to port).
What if I'm planning on using a different view engine in future. I might want to keep some of the logic aside from the tag soup to make it easier to reuse later.
What if I want to be able to rename my Model classes and have it automatically refactor my view without having to go to the view.aspx and change the class name.
What if I'm coordinating with an HTML designer who I don't trust to not mess up the 'tag soup' and want to write anythin beyond very basic looping in the .aspx.cs file.
If you want to sort the data based upon the view's default sort option. I really dont think the controller should be sorting data for you if you have multiple sorting options accessible only from the view.
You actually want to debug the view logic in code that actuallky looks like .cs and not HTML.
You want to write code that may be factored out later and reused elsewhere - you're just not sure yet.
You want to prototype what may become a new HtmlHelper but you haven't yet decided whether its generic enough or not to warrant creating an HtmlHelper. (basically same as previous point)
You want to create a helper method to render a partial view, but need to create a model for it by plucking data out of the main page's view and creating a model for the partial control which is based on the current loop iteration.
You believe that programming complex logic IN A SINGLE FUNCTION is an out of date and unmaintainable practice.
You did it before RC1 and didn't run into any problems !!
Yes! Some views should not need codebehind at all.
Yes! It sucks to get a stupid .designer file created in addition to .cs file.
Yes! Its kind of annoying to get those little + signs next to each view.
BUT - It's really not that hard to NOT put data access logic in the code-behind.
They are most certainly NOT evil.
Ultimately, the question you ask yourself is this:
Does this code A) Process, store, retrieve, perform operations on or analyze the data, or B) Help to display the data?
If the answer is A, it belongs in your controller. If the answer is B, then it belongs in the view.
If B, it ultimately becomes a question of style. If you have some rather long conditional operations for trying to figure out if you display something to the user, then you might hide those conditional operations in the code behind in a Property. Otherwise, it seems like most people drop the code in-line to the front end using the <% %> and <%= %> tags.
Originally, I put all my display logic inside the <% %> tags. But recently I've taken to putting anything messy (such as a lengthy conditional) in my code behind to keep my XHML clean. The trick here is discipline - it's all too tempting to start writing business logic in the code behind, which is exactly what you should not be doing in MVC.
If you're trying to move from traditional ASP.NET to ASP.NET MVC, you might aviod the code behinds until you have a feel for the practices (though it still doesn't stop you from putting business logic inside the <% %>.
There isn't a purpose. Just don't use it except for setting the model
ViewPage<Model>
See this blogpost for more info.
At this Blogpost is a working example of removing the code behind.
The only problem I'm stuck with is that it is not able to set namespaces on the class.
The codebehind provides some of the strong typing as well as the intellisense support that you get in the view. If you don't care about any of these two features, you can remove it.
For example, I typically use the NVelocity ViewEngine because it's clean and pretty straight forward.
This is a great question. Doesn't MVC exist in the ASP.NET environment, without using the specific MVC pattern.
View = aspx
Controller = aspx.cs (codebehind)
Model = POCO (Plain Old C#/VB/.NET objects)
I'm wondering why the added functionality of MVC framework is helpful. I worked significantly with Java nd MVC and Java Struts several years ago (2001), and found the concepts in MVC to be a solution for the Internet Application organization and development problems at that time, but then found that the codebehind simplified the controller concept and was quicker to develop and communicate to others. I am sure others disagree with me, and I am open to other ideas. The biggest value I see to MVC is the front controller pattern for Internet development, single entry source for Internet Application. But, on the other hand, that pattern is fairly simple to implement with current ASP.NET technologies. I have heard others say that Unit Testing is the reasoning. I can understand that also, we used JUnit with our MVC framework in 2001; but I have not been convinced that it simplifies testing to use te MVC framework.
Thanks for reading!